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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
what are the options that we have for evo 5-7 ? do you have to change the standard manifold ?

do you have to get an external wastegate?

the prices that i have seen for the HKS turbo kits are extremely expensive!! you can usually pick a turbo up for 75-1000£ but some of these kits valuse the turbos at 2500|PLS||PLS|!!! that could be real.


what is available, i know due to the reverse spin things are limited but can we fit the TD05 20G ? you can get them from the states for 1000$ no that is not that expensive really? how can i make one of these fit?


i am looking for around 400bhp and 350-400lbft at 1.5 bar for an ultimate goal. also the funds do not permit me doing every thing at one go so staging is the word of the month for me right now.


the usual suspects opinions highly apprecaited, lightS, oli, MC, andy, evorsx, blade etc :D


sam
 
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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
all things being equal,the 15 Mak turbo works well on a 7
there is a thread somewhere,Elvis had done tests on 7 turbos
i am confident of 370/380 and 350 lb ft with a few adjustments ,using this turbo on a 5
Also using std rod bolts !!!
Obviously,if it blows,i wont make it public,but hey,lifes too short to worry about a little spent aluminium .
 
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Sam,
I assume that the td05/20g is a hybrid turbo using the td05 turbine wheel mated to a 20G compressor? I don't know what the performance of this unit is like but I would have thought that using the smaller turbine wheel to pass a large quantity of gas generated by the bigger 20g would restrict the airflow from the engine and so limit the turbos performance.

The td06/20g that Blade has and Simon's Evo4 had should give you enough flow to produce what you require but is costly (IIRC around £3500). I think that this also requires a different manifold but Blade or Simon can confirm that.

The E6 standard turbo may be able to get close to those figures (probably around 380ish bhp) but to get the 400 lbft of torque would require a lot of boost (greater than your limit of 1.5 bar) in the midrange and because of this will require forged rods and pistons and a rpm mappable boost controller or mappable ECU.

Alternatively, you can try the Mak GSR turbo that JC is talking about. No-one knows yet what this turbo is capable of (as we haven't found a compressor map yet.....) but like JC says, he is pushing out close to 400bhp and also 350lbft of torque and, I believe, only running approx 1.5 bar max. This is obviously a good sign as to what it's capable of :)

Re: external wastegates
An external wastegate is usually required with bigger turbos (td06/20g) because with the increase in gas flow through the engine an internal wastegate can't let enough gas pass through it to control the boost steadily and so it will start to fluctuate wildly.
The Mak GSR and standard E6 turbo's won't require external wastegates and should (not sure for certain....) fit onto the standard manifold.

Hope this helps

Andy
 
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
as andy says,over 350 lbft and you need lots of toys..........
i personally prefer to combine traditional tuning,such as cams,hks or any free flowing manifold,gasflowing and blueprinting.....
with Apexi boost control,water injection and all the other gismos
 
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
thanks JC, andy

i would really only buy one of these if there is one going around cheaply just to experiement.maybe i will be checking MNews every week.

the reseaon i was looking at a t05 20g is that it will should flow more more than the standard 16g so should be able to get to the 400bhp target.

by the way the ecu will be the first thing to change for me. though

spoke to my tuner about cams and wiring the ecu today :)
 
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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
sam, did you look at the links I sent you? The TD05-20g should fit the manifold (or get a US manifold). The Eclipse uses the same engine, so as long as it fits in the engine bay (which it does) it should go. Some of these flow 750cfm or more. You can get an equal of the TD06-20g in flow terms. These hybrids also have internal wastegates, which saves alot of cash. The complexity will be in the downpipe area. It is likely that this will not fit, but also relatively cheap and simple to fabricate a downpipe to satisfy your needs.

I would have tried this (knowing what I know now), but when I ordered my TD06-20g, I was really on my own - Power Engineering were no help making that decision, they just helped located and supply it. Call one of the US tuners.

For the cost of flights right now, it is probably cheaper to fly to the U.S, check out the turbo yourself, and fly it back with you than to import it!!
 
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
the only link you sent me blade was for www.takikaira.com. do you recommend any american tuners to talk to? i have seen them sell the TD05 20G and manifold for the 2 G eclipse for 1400$ !!!!!! that is 1k not that is value for money. a custom exhuast that is the whole set up or 1300£

i am going to the cayman islands in may after all :) a D tour maybe on the menu
sam
 
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
hi blade no i did not get anything mate. cheers mate.

one more thing to ask though. that this problem upgrading the turbo is only a problem on the 5-7. can i get a evo 3 or 4 manifold and fit the bigger turbo to it? will this fit or will need too much alterations to make the manifold fit? even better if it fits i can get an evo 3 or 4 after market tubular manifold and fit the turbo of my choise on top of it. i am sure this will still be cheaper than all these hugly over priced kit that are available?


what am i missing here, surely it could not be that easy


sam
 
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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
sam

http://www.avoturbo.com/html/news/latestnews4.html

328 hp at wheels @ 1.5bar, link management (of course)

manifold and amp; turbo (garret bb good for about 500 hp) about $4500 aussie - approx 1650 pounds, don't supply the dump pipe but can supply a flange and any good exhaust shop can take it from there

anything over about 500 and the standard crank will break - just goes clunk

have fun
andrew
 
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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
hi andrew
now we are talking 1600£ i can justify spending on a turbo and manifold but 3800 i just can't.

i will try emailing them and see what they can offer :)

sam
 
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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
sam

good luck, if they don't respond try calling maybe, although their phone system is a bit strange and you have to swear a lot and call everybody mate

also find out if they will include the map they are using in the package, then it will be plug and play! (if they don't i know that bob went over to sydney to help map it on the dyno so he might be able to help)

andrew
 
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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
http://www.buschurracing.com

http://www.roadraceengineering.com

Are two of the best in the US.

Also

http://www.extrememotorsports.com

That manifold looks like the 'HKS'? 'Turbonetics' Garrett manifold being fitted to many drag Eclipses in US.

As far as turbo choice goes you can fit anything you like as long as it will squeeze under the bonnet - you could always fit a power bulge for that T88!

If you go for the DSM/Eclipse 20g hybrids with evo 3 manifold from the US you will lose the beautiful twin entry manifold and the anticlockwise spin which makes the evo set-up so responsive. If driveability is your goal - stick to the big16g (or Mak 15g) and map the mid range overboost for ultimate torque. If you want an ultimate monster then you need something bigger. I've seen an evo 3 drag car on the web with an HKS T51R (good for at least 750hp!!!)

The HKS and Garrett Ball Bearing turbos are real nice - the ball bearings offset some of the lag associated with bigger internals - the yen is a little weaker at the moment too. You can always find someone to custom fabricate a stainless manifold for you. It might be possible to build a custom Garrett HKS GT copy without the ball bearings for a good price.

An external wastegate is only necessary if the internal one is too small for the bypass flow or there isn't one available for the turbine housing. 500hp Cossies run fine with internal wastegated Garrets. If the internal one is too small (or the exhaust passage from it restricted) you will suffer from 'boost creep' where the boost will no longer be controllable and will continue to rise with the wastegate fully opened. HKS, Greddy external units are very nice but pricey. The Turbonetics Deltagate has mixed reviews - Tial look like good value.
 
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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
hi LS
If you go for the DSM/Eclipse 20g hybrids with evo 3 manifold from the US you will lose the beautiful twin entry manifold and the anticlockwise spin which makes the evo set-up so responsive.

what is the standard evo7 manifold? is it 4-2-1 or just 4-1? what is the twin entry bit?
how much is this really worth combined with the revese spin ?

i remember blad reported no increase in lag after fitting the his 20g turbo. but i am not sure if its a BB or not.

it is all relative really how much lag we are talking about here really. i get 1.4bar boost by 3100rpm in 4th and 3000in 5th. can some body post their achieved boost tragets on here for the different turbos and different cars just for the sack of comparison?


are the evo 3s that laggy then in comparison to the 5-7?


too many questions

sam
 
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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Sam, the 20g is not ball bearing. I may not have noticed the difference as much because of the cams. My gearing is different too, and the lighter flywheel makes alot of difference. Running at Donington, lag was never a problem and the power band was lovely and wide. Part throttle response was ****, but that is down to the mapping which needs sorting.

Why don't you come down and see the car before you spend a load of cash. I am at Brands Hatch on March 18th, and will be at the MLR Cadwell day in March too.
 
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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Sam,

Pictures of evo 5 manifold vs. US Eclipse (similar to evo 3) here

http://www.roadraceengineering.com/rreimages/evo5/

Look at the manifolds.jpg

Also exhaustmanifoldbottom.jpg , turboexhaustinlet.jpg and amp; turbos2.jpg

The evo 5, 6 and 7 (4?) have the twin entry style turbo with a 4 into 2 manifold linking cylinders 1,4 and 2,3. This maximises the pulse tuning effect from the 1-3-4-2 firing order and also helps to prevent reverse flow between the manifold branches.

This is an improvement over the previous single entry turbo found on evo's 1 to 3 - and will reduce lag and improve overall throttle response. The engineers don't add features like this for fun (well they do but you know what I mean!)

The reverse spin is also to improve the flow to the turbine. For improved centre of gravity it makes sense to mount the turbo as low down as possible - ie. hanging below the manifold. This design also has the advantage of a very direct and straight path from the cylinder head exit direct to the turbine housing entry. There are no tight bends to impede the flow. On exit from the cylinder head the air is already curving downwards - it helps to take advantage of this rotation direction on entry to the turbine by matching the turbine rotation direction to the air's flow direction.

When they reversed the engine for the evo 4 they needed to reverse the turbo so that the compressor end (and inlet/outlet pipework) still faced the gearbox. To utilise the existing evo 3 turbo they would have had to place the turbo above the manifold. It is an expensive solution - most manufacturers would have compromised their design at this point - it's one of those small things that makes the evo's so great.

With Blade's Greddy/Trust 20g kit the tubular manifold will to some extent offset the problem of having a clockwise spinning turbo.
 
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