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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi tuning-volkZ

..a dealer offered me a water/alcohol injection
for about £400.-

..it will increase horses of the EVO DOHCT-Turbo
for about 80 PS (by simultaneous cooling
and thus ...it takes care to the engine http://www.ltregister.f9.co.uk/graphics/Happy.gif border|EQU| 0 align|EQU| middle > )

..it injects (at full throttle) 0.15l water/alc
mix...

..has sb practised such a engine-tuning ?
Does it really don't destroy the evo's DOHCT?

GreetZ and thnx
Florian
 
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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
Florian,
Cant help you directly, but one of the better water injection systems is Aquamist. You may want to read their pages to gain more information.
 
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Hi

|EQU| and amp;gt; yess, good TIP, ..i got the offer from
Nextek GmbH, the SWISS Distributor for Aquamist products
..about 3 min's by car.

...but does it damage the engine ? or is
it really very safe instrument for tuning..
my evo
 
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Contact Power Engineering in the UK , they have this in their mod program for Evo's , so they cud advise U.
 
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I don't think it will give you 80 extra ponies without other modifications - ie. better flow and more boost. Spend the money on exhaust including downpipe and high flow cat (or decat pipe), airfilter, boost control, gauges (boost, egt, air/fuel), fuel system upgrades (pump,ecu,injectors etc), camshafts, intercooler pipes, porting and flowing - then when your pushing the limits of the standard intercooler (ie inlet temps above 50deg. C) I would suggest water/alcohol injection will start to help.
 
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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
evil, the flow rate of water/alcohol, is that litres/minute? What is the proportion of alcohol (presumably ethanol?)in the water/alcohol mix?

Normally water injection on its own slightly reduces power. It is intended to stop pre-ignition. However if there is a significant quantity of alcohol in the mix then this will burn giving more power. Although as the ECU will regulate the petrol being injected based on the amount of air being allowed into the engine the mixture will run rich and you will not see any additional power.

Why are you looking at doing this are you running on low octane fuel or intending to increase your boost?
 
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Oli,

..yes, i meant 0.15l/min.

How it works ? *humm* ..read the explanation
of Aquamist:

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/dc/dc.html

I've got a good explanation ..but it's in
GERMAN http://www.ltregister.f9.co.uk/graphics/Wilk.gif border|EQU| 0 align|EQU| middle > !! http://www.lsos.ch/Technik/Docs/NexTek_WasserEinspritz2.htm

..the proportion ? ..don't know.., Business-secret

I always use 97 RON... water/alc injection
helps (highly) to cool down the tem. of the
air, that the turbocharger suck's :-o

..and your turbo produces more horses, if
weather is COOOOOOOLD *brrr* ..you noticed
that certain by yourselves... [img]http://www.ltregister.f9.co.uk/graphics/Wilk.gif border|EQU| 0 align|EQU| middle >

Florian
 
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
evil,

Thanks for the info. I have got a good tuning book at home that recommends the required flowrate, and will compare the 0.15 l/min with the flowrate they recommend.

However I'm not sure that you will see much power increase after fitting the water injection because with this sort of flow rate my calculations show that this will reduce inlet temperature by 1.5'C which is worth about 1hp. Unless my calcs are ******. From the thread on the intercooler the standard item seems fairly effecient (cooling down to within ~20'C of ambient).

As I now work for a German company I should be able to read the lingo, but I can't.

By the way there was a German chappy (Kurt Tank?)in WWII who fitted water/methanol injection to a FW190 (which has a BMW engine). Apparently left the Allied Spitfires/Mustangs for dead!
 
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
okey.., maybe a bad translation... into english (www.google.com) ...excuse..

QUESTION: What is a WAES exact?

NEXTEK: A WAES squirts a mixture of water and alcohol with an electromagnetic high-pressure pump over a special molecular atomizing
nozzle into the Luftansaugtrakt in

QUESTION: Why does a turbo engine with a WAES achieve a higher performance?

NEXTEK: the main problem of each combustion engine is the thermal load. With practically all engines the performance is limited by the
temperature in the combustion chamber. If a certain temperature is exceeded, then uncontrolled burns (knock) occur. These uncontrolled
burns lead to a substantial power loss and finally to damage to the engine. With a turbo engine this problem strengthens even still. The intake
air of the turbo engine is strongly warmed up in the turbine (by compression and heat transfer of the exhaust gases) and the thermal upper
limit is fast achieved. In conventional turbo engines one tries to get this problem with the assistance of intercoolers into the grasp. The
performance of a turbo engine depends thus directly on the efficiency of the intercooler, thus on the cooling of the intake air. However close
physical boundaries are set to the effectiveness of intercoolers by the ambient temperature and the max. size. An increase of the load
printing furnishes no more increased output in this situation and a damage to the engine is practically pre-programmed. In this problems now
the concept of a WAES intervenes. By the injection water/alcohol of a mixture one achieves an additional cooling of the warmed up intake air.
The large advantage of a WAES is that the cooling is physically practically not limited. I.e. if the intake air is too strongly warmed up, one
increases simply the injection amount and achieves thus the cooling desired. By this unique advantage one can use the capacity of the Turbos
fully and attainable engine performance is reduced not by the thermal boundaries.

QUESTION: How much can I expect increased output?

NEXTEK: The attainable increased output depends on the performance of the turbine. With a qualitative high-quality turbine an increased
output of up to 45 per cent is possible.
 
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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
My understanding is that water/alcohol injection was really only of any use on motors running very high boost i.e. 2-3bar.

As oli goon says, water injection on it's own will reduce power but help prevent detonation (and increase effective compression!), it is this property that helps in high boost situations. The ethanol is only added to help counteract some of the power loss, but will only make a difference if the ECU is aware of it i.e. aftermarket control (motec etc.). Water injection is a well proven and reliable method for increasing engine output but I wouldn't of thought it suitable on a stock or near-stock motor.

Sort out the breathing, strengthen the engine, get a mappable ecu, raise boost then look at water injection would be my recommendation.
 
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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
okey.. not enough power with water/alc.. http://www.ltregister.f9.co.uk/graphics/Sad.gif border|EQU| 0 align|EQU| middle >

|EQU| and amp;gt; and what about NOS (nitrous kit) [img]http://www.ltregister.f9.co.uk/graphics/Happy.gif border|EQU| 0 align|EQU| middle >) ?

increases the horses (a stable of about 80
horses *g*) ..right and proper...?! or dangerous and kills the engine...!??
 
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
evil,

You could fit nitrous, however there's not much point on a turbo car if you are only looking to increase top end power, as it's much easier to increase the boost with a different ecu.

Nitrous can be used to bring the turbo on line earlier in the rev range. Nitrous would only be injected on max throttle openings when there was no turbo boost. What this will do is as you accelerate from low revs there is not enough exhasut gas to spin up turbo appreciably. Hence little or no boost. However at this point if you were to introduce nitrous this would increase flow of exhaust gases and hence spin up the turbo.

In my opinion on an Evo this isn't really worthwhile as the power delivery is not particularly poor at low revs. For it to be useful you would have to have decreased the static compression ratio to allow mega boost to be run to give mega top end power but poor bottom end power.

Like Chunky says, breathing, strenghthen (big end bolts?), new ecu....

Incidentally Chunky, why is it that the standard big end bolts are considered weak? Big end bolts are not noramally an engines weakest link.
 
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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Bit isnt what Florian says ie water and alcohol injection different from the Aquamist thing? I saw the picture on the Nextek page and it looks the same as the Aquamist, but maybe you get something totally different from adding alcohol to the mix? I understand from Aquamist web site that only water is injected.
 
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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Claudius,

At max power fuel flowrate would be about 1 l/min, hence if you were to inject pure ethanol at 0.15 l/min you would get an improvement in the fuel octane rating of about 1.5 RON (ethanol has a RON of about 105) and about a 1'C reduction in inlet temperatures. Unless the ECU is programmed to recognize the injection of ethanol then you will end up with the mixture running very rich. All of this will reduce the likelihood of pre-ignition. However if you haven't got a problem with pre-ignition in the first place then I don't see much point as its not going to give any more power on its own.

On the other hand if you fit an ECU which say gives 2 bar boost and do not lower the static compression ratio then you will need all the pre-ignition protection you can get.

Perhaps as part of the installation of the ethanol/water injection the boost is somehow increased. This will then give the 80hp discussed. However its the boost that giving the power and not the injection which just stops the piston melting pre-ignition. Of course the danger is that if for some reason the water injection does not operate (say run out of water or blocked injector) you will still have the boost but no pre-ignition protection
 
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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Hi

I talked to the guys at NExtek. The told me the mix is water and methanol (160 octane). They use the Aquamist system and add methanol. They didnt make an indication as to how much power an Evo modded to 350 bhp would have after the conversion, but I am now awaiting an answer. I'll keep you posted.
 
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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
They use half methanol and half water. 160 octane is for methanol, not for the mix. The main point of this system is to reduce intake temps on cars with higher boost. This will increase the knock limit so you can turn up the boost even more or run safer. I was told that if my Evo has 350 bhp, I will get between 380 and 420 from this. The will dyno test the car before and after on a certified dyno.

Just saying what the guy told me, please dont flame me if you think it's not true!!
 
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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Claudius,

The figure that I got for the RON of ethanol was also quoted for methanol. This source might be wrong, however 160 does sound a bit steep.

I have rechecked my calculation and have discovered a ****-up (oops http://www.ltregister.f9.co.uk/graphics/sad1.gif border|EQU| 0 align|EQU| absmiddle >- now i know why I gave up engineering[img]http://www.ltregister.f9.co.uk/graphics/biggrin1.gif border|EQU| 0 align|EQU| absmiddle >). 0.15 l/min of water at 7000rpm and 286hp will give a 22'C decrease of the inlet temperature which is a bit more useful and will give about a 16hp increase if all the water evaporates (which it probably will). Methanol has a lower heat of vaporisation than water so you will get less cooling effect with a water/methanol mix. My calc shows about 16'C decrease.

Apologies for this. However its still off the figures of 30 to 70 hp increase they expect. Although having said that the 16'C decrease in inlet temperature will give a very useful protection against pre-ignition which would allow them to increase your boost hence finding the extra horses? What boost are you currently running?

Personally if I were looking at injection the I would stick with pure water as the benefits of the methanol look marginal to say the least.
 
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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Hi Oli goon

At the moment I still have standard boost etc, my car is just one month old.
I would like to get a Motec M48 mapped for my TME but it seems kind of difficult to find someone who is able to do the job around here (Monaco) unless you have a guy from Motec come down, but that's expensive and there is no dyno around here...
Basically, I want a Motec with at least 1,4 bars sustained turbo pressure. Then I will dyno it, then I will have the Aquamist water methanol injection added, and then I will dyno it again on the same dyno. If it was 350 bhp (which it will have to be or I raise the boost) then after the w/a injection fitted it must be at least 400 bhp or I will just fill in water for protection or take it off (dont know yet). (Protection probably wiser).
What are you running?
 
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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Claudius

..MONACO *humm* ..it's not a long way..

) and amp;gt; ..in Switzerland, there are several Tuners, they can fit a Motec ECU..

f.ex. EGGENBERGER MOTORSPORT AG ..they
are also running an EVO VI in Group N
Rallyes (so they have a lot of experience) http://www.ltregister.f9.co.uk/graphics/Happy.gif border|EQU| 0 align|EQU| middle >
http://www.egmo.ch (for phone-nr.)

GreetZ
Florian
 
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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Maybe that's why Manfred Stohl became finally World Champion when his Motec wasn't mapped by Mario Flury from EGMO anymore!!
Eggenberger for sure is good but check out their prices!!!!!!!!!
I've already got an offer for mapping a Motec but can't afford it.

Florian where do you come from? It seems you and me are the only Swiss lads lurking around here. Do you also know Antonio Borsi who runs my.evo.com?

See ya

Mike
 
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