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Discussion Starter #1
I have seen alot of hype and crap about upgrading turbos, but from what I have seen, there is nobody in the UK who has actually changed the turbo on a 6.

My needs are simple: I want to know what turbo to get that won't unduly affect the lag, but allow me to reach 450bhp or more. I have been told that Greddy, Apex and HKS do kits for this ranging from £3,500 to £5,000 - wait, we need more for a new ECU and injectors etc. - read £8000 to do it all. What I can't get is anyone to say You WILL GET THIS POWER or THIS WON'T AFFECT THE LAG or really anything, as nobody seems to have the right experience. I know you can use mathematical equations to calculate horsepower, but I live in the real world, and I want to know what the change FEELS like, not what numbers it technically produces. I would hate to change it and loose the excellent low-down power I have now.

Smaller turbos feature quick spin up, and the EVO's is particularly good for that. Some have said different internals allows more boost. The RS450 does run 2.2 bar in the midrange, but not at the top end, as the flow rates are too high.

I can't believe that there isn't anyone who has done this. I know Manuel and Roy Weg have, but both seem to be using much larger turbos than would be good for my application (circuits).

Can anyone suggest somewhere to look? I would hate to hand over a wedge of cash to any tuner for an experiment , especially as the car is working really well now.
 
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Discussion Starter #2
I dont know if this help u ok, have u heared of option motor sport, When I had my FTO I have been chatting to him for a while, he is a goodman and a mad man in motor, he has a skyline that is running about 896bhp at the mo, so I would say his a quite good machanic!! give him an e-mail on this address about ur cars spec at the mo and what u want from it he should be able to sort out the closest, if he cant no one else in this world can cuz his good!! I think so! but he is abit expensive!!
[email protected]port.com his name is Nana (his the owner!) give him a try mate!!
 
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Discussion Starter #4
Blade,

With my GReddy/Trust TD-06 20G turbo and tubular manifold/external wastegate combo (£3600 |PLS|vat from SVS 01483 285 657) I don't believe there is much lag over standard, I'm running 1.35 bar and it will hit full boost at 3500rpm, I think it shows positive boost from around 2000rpm.

I've never driven a standard Evo so i can't comment too much, the only comparison was with Shorty at the Swindon meet. You could tell his turbo spun quicker as he would briefly pull away out of tight corners, but then once my turbo hit boost I would catch up pretty quickly.

Also, I get the Japanese Option mags monthly, in one of them they had a big turbo feature and they showed my turbo to be capable of up to 500bhp although on what they base that on and what boost levels I don't know.

As for Option Motorsport, yes they are good and I know Nana (the owner). His Skyline is running mega power but its running a huge single turbo (like the GReddy T88-34D) but I think the Blitz version of it. Those turbos dont start hitting boost until about 4500 - 5000rpm.

Other that, I can't really help.

Si
 
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Discussion Starter #5
Simon, this is interesting, thanks - it supports one idea I had - that the best route is to fit a bigger mitsi turbo (which is what the Greddy is).

Perhaps we could meet/compare some time?

Have you rollered your car, changed the cams etc? A detailed spec would help me judge your car. Do you use it on the track alot?

Thanx in advance
 
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Discussion Starter #6
The bigger Mitsi TD06-20g is good for around 485hp (650cfm) as opposed to the 375hp(505cfm) of the standard 16g6 compressor wheel.
The 20g compressor wheel is effectively one size larger than the 16g6 although it's overall diameter is the same at 68mm.
The TD06 has a larger turbine wheel (65mm dia) than the TD05 (56mm dia.) fitted as standard on all evo's.
The increased rotational inertia (mainly from the larger turbine wheel) will increase spin up lag. A tubular exhaust manifold may offset this slightly but only if is well designed with the correct length runners.

The standard evo turbo installation (5 onwards) is very effective at reducing lag with it's twin entry turbine - especially in titanium aluminide turbine wheel RS form with it's reduced inertia.
BTW - it's a shame that the TME GSR has a smaller 15G compressor wheel - why!!!???

The biggest pain in the arse is that Mitsubishi reversed the rotating direction compared to all their previous turbos and to pretty much all the existing turbos from other manufacturers.
(If anyone knows of another make of anticlockwise spinning turbo then please let me know).
This means that there are no compressor wheel upgrades for the td05hr-16g6 turbo. (the r indicates the reverse spin). It is a big shame as a 20g compressor wheel in a td06 compressor housing fitted to a td05 centre and exhaust would be the perfect upgrade for a 450hp evo.

Fitting a larger turbo will always increase lag (unless antilag is used) to some extent. On a race track you will normally be over 4000 rpm at all times so this shouldn't be much of a problem. The off boost performance of evo's is pretty good anyway with their 8.8:1 compression ratio.

So what are the options

Standard Mitsubishi td05hr-16g6 10.5 375hp
16g6 compressor wheel ( 48.0/68.0mm) (inducer dia/exducer dia.)
16g6 Comp hsg
td05h turbine (55.8mm/49.0mm) (inducer dia/exducer dia.)
Twin entry turbine housing 10.5cm2.

Greddy - td06-20g. 485hp
20g compressor wheel (52.6mm/68.0mm)
20g Comp hsg
td06h turbine (65.0mm/55.2mm)
Turbine housing ?cm2.


HKS GT Ball Bearing Series – based on Garrett parts

GT2835R – 420hp rating
56 trim compressor wheel (53.1mm/71.1mm)
.50AR Comp hsg 100mm intake / 50mm outlet
90 trim T25 turbine (56.5mm/53.6mm)
Turbine housing 0.61 8cm2, 0.73 10 cm2, 0.87 12 cm2, 1.01 14 cm2, 1.12 16 cm2,

GT3037
48 trim compressor wheel (52.8mm/76.2mm) – 420hp rating (Garrett T04S 48)
52 trim compressor wheel (55.0mm/76.2mm) – 440hp rating (Garrett T04S 52)
56 trim compressor wheel (57.0mm/76.2mm) – 470hp rating (Garrett T04S 60)
.60AR Comp hsg 70mm intake / 50mm outlet
84 trim T3 turbine (60.0mm/55.0mm)
Turbine housing 0.61 8cm2, 0.73 10 cm2, 0.87 12 cm2, 1.01 14 cm2, 1.12 16 cm2,

GT3037R
52 trim compressor wheel (55.0mm/76.2mm) – 450hp rating (Garrett T04S 52)
56 trim compressor wheel (57.0mm/76.2mm) – 480hp rating (Garrett T04S 56)
.60AR Comp hsg 100mm intake / 50mm outlet
84 trim T3 turbine (60.0mm/55.0mm)
Turbine housing 0.61 8cm2, 0.73 10 cm2, 0.87 12 cm2, 1.01 14 cm2, 1.12 16 cm2,

GT3040– 500hp rating
50 trim compressor wheel (58.0mm/82.0mm) (Garrett T04S GT40???)
.70AR Comp hsg 100mm intake / 60mm outlet
84 trim T3 turbine (60.0mm/55.0mm)
Turbine housing 0.61 8cm2, 0.73 10 cm2, 0.87 12 cm2, 1.01 14 cm2, 1.12 16 cm2,


Garrett Ballistic Concepts Ball Bearing Turbo

GT25 – 450hp rating
48 trim T04S compressor wheel (53.1mm/71.1mm)
.70AR Comp hsg
76 trim turbine (53.8mm/47.0mm)
Turbine housing 0.86 (12 cm2?) (Smaller 0.64 trim housing only rated for 350hp)

GT30 – 500hp rating
56 trim T04S compressor wheel (57.1mm/76.2mm)
.70AR Comp hsg
84 trim turbine (59.9mm/54.9mm)
Turbine housing 0.63, 0.82, 1.06

(Smaller AR housing will give less lag but will restrict exhaust gas flow at high rpms leading to higher manifold temperature)



Turbonetics Ceramic Ball Bearing – I have not heard many good stories about turbonetics.

Blitz – KKK turbos ???

IHI - ???

My recommendation would be an HKS GT3037R 56 trim or Garrett GT30.
Both have ball bearing centre section to reduce lag and increase reliability. Use a small to medium exhaust housing - say 0.8 AR for less lag.
 
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Discussion Starter #7
Lightspeed, the Mitsu said that used a little compressor for EVO TME because they wanted more response.

and amp;gt;It is a big shame as a 20g compressor wheel in a td06 compressor housing fitted to a td05 centre and exhaust would be the perfect and amp;gt;upgrade for a 450hp evo.

Sorry, but I don't understand this paragraphe. Please be a little simpler. :D

and amp;gt; 56 trim compressor wheel (57.0mm/76.2mm) – 480hp rating (Garrett T04S 56)

Why the GT3037R developed 10 HP more than GT3037?

Greddy's turbo has the twin entry?
In Italy in several competitions we use Turbonetics which are very reliable.
With a reverse turbo, do you have to change forcibly the exhaust manifold (engine-turbo)?

Bye :)
 
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Discussion Starter #8
Blade,

Yeah I'd be happy to meet and compare, no probs.

Just for info

GReddy turbos are made by Mitsi

HKS by Garrett

Blitz by KKK

A'pex-i by IHI

I think the cams are uprated but I don't know which spec, I'm planning to get the car rollered soon but the first test will be Santa Pod this Sunday. I'll prob do my first rolling road power run at Power Engineering if only cos its the closest one to me and one of my best mates know Steve and Mervyn very very well. I will be going on the day with my mate in his S1 Rs Turbo and another mate with a GTiR so we can all do a comparison.

I haven't used my car on track yet, I don' think the brakes willbe up for it, i think they are slightly warped.

As for the spec I have posted it before so this is it cut and pasted from yahoogroups:

Engine:

GReddy AirInx air filter
GReddy Tubular manifold
GReddy TD-06L 20G turbo
GReddy External wastegate with separate dump pipe
Full straight through exhaust with HKS Hiper style muffler (not sure
which make but it very loud and pops and bangs)
Oil breather
Alloy i/c piping kit
OS Giken or Ogura Twin plate clutch and lightweight flywheel (not
sure)
Uprated cams (not sure of spec0
Also possibly has forged pistons and rods but this will be checked
out later.
Boss/LAP ecu (can anyone help to identify this ??)

Boost peaks at 1.35 bar

Chassis:

HKS Hiper dampers and springs all round (height and damping
adjustable)
HKS Pillowball top mounts
Cusco upper front upper strut brace
Cusco lower crossmember brace
Mines rear upper strut brace (bolts across the struts and down
towards the rear lights)
Inner front wing braces
16 Desmond Regamaster Evo wheels with 205/55/16 tyres
Front and rear mechanical LSD
ABS disconnected
Active yaw control disconnected

Interior:

Sparco bucket drivers seat
GReddy boost gauge
GReddy oil temp gauge
GReddy Oil pressure gauge
GReddy Exhaust temparature gauge
GReddy Profec B boost controller
Momo steering wheel
Turbo timer
Billion Variable fan controller


By the way, after my 0-60 of 3.72 secs I did a memory recall on the boost
gauge and it showed a peak of 1.2 bar. It normally runs 1.35 so I
presume with a bit more practice I could get into the 3.5's/3.6.s..

Cheers

Si
 
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Discussion Starter #9
Si,

Let me know when you go to PE. My car is there at the mo anyway! Steve is working on it. They can have a butchers at your turbo and see if it is the way to go with mine, if you are willing :)

Tony
 
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Discussion Starter #10
Lightspeed,

Awesome information! Thanks....

One of the options we were looking at was new internals for the 16g - they may have been from the 20g. Will investigate.
 
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Discussion Starter #11
and amp;gt;Lightspeed, the Mitsu said that used a little compressor for EVO TME because they wanted more response.

I know - but it's a pity as it has less tuning potential - (I need a compressor map to be sure of this - anyone???).

and amp;gt; and amp;gt;It is a big shame as a 20g compressor wheel in a td06 compressor housing fitted to a td05 centre and exhaust would be the perfect and amp;gt;upgrade for a 450hp evo.

and amp;gt;Sorry, but I don't understand this paragraphe. Please be a little simpler.

OK - I'll try - evo 4,5,6,7 turbos spin anticlockwise / evo 1,2,3,Garrett,KKK,IHI spin clockwise - this means that the vanes/blades on the compressor and turbine wheels face the other way - because of this there are no compressor wheel upgrades available that I know of for the evo 4,5,6,7 td05hr-16g6 turbo. On early evos 1,2,3 and US 4G63 powered DSM Eclipses the upgrade for the td05h-16g (or 14b or 16g6) is to fit a 20g compressor wheel and housing to the standard turbo to give 475hp capability whilst still retaining good response. It is a very effective combination.

and amp;gt; and amp;gt; 56 trim compressor wheel (57.0mm/76.2mm) – 480hp rating (Garrett T04S 56)

and amp;gt;Why the GT3037R developed 10 HP more than GT3037?

It develops more because it has a better flowing compressor housing - bigger inlet.
.60AR Comp hsg 100mm intake / 50mm outlet GT3037R
.60AR Comp hsg 70mm intake / 50mm outlet GT3037

and amp;gt;Greddy's turbo has the twin entry?

I'm not sure - haven't seen a good picture.

and amp;gt;In Italy in several competitions we use Turbonetics which are very reliable.

I'm just passing on what I've read on the US DSM forums.
Some people say good things - but I've also read a few horror stories.

and amp;gt;With a reverse turbo, do you have to change forcibly the exhaust manifold (engine-turbo)?

All of the aftermarket turbos for the 4,5,6,7 require a new manifold as far as I know. None are as elegant a design as the original Mitsubishi design as the exhaust gas has to change direction around an extra bend before it reaches the turbine housing inlet. I guess they are fractionally less efficient.
Evo 1,2,3 could fit other turbos with an adaptor plate on the manifold but why bother when you can bolt on a 20g.
 
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Discussion Starter #12
Blade,

I reckon I should be going there in a about 2 weeks, yeah they can check out the car no probs,

Si
 
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Discussion Starter #13
I will be going to P.E. in 3 weeks (3rd November) for a power run.

Blade, will your car still be down there or would you like to meet up with me on the day

Si
 
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Discussion Starter #14
Simon,

Yeh, sounds good! Hopefully my car will be in one piece after Donnington on the 31st Oct! The car won't be staying there, but I'll drive up to see your car - really interested in your turbo, as it is also the one lightspeed is recommending here.
 
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Discussion Starter #15
Not being funny, or sarcastic, but Lightspeed, how come u know some much about this? It is really very good information. I am just curious that's all! I have struggled to find good info on turbos... Maybe I need to learn Japanese :D

Actually, speaking of which (off topic) - I took some of our Japanese clients out in London. Went to a Japanese restaurant (nice), though they ordered, had no idea. Tasted good (thank god) - daren't ask what it was! Afterwards, they suggested Japanese Karaoke!

Great! I love a sing-song! So off we went - I was with 3 consultants from our company, and the two customers. As soon as we came in, we were surrounded by lovely Japanese girls! We sat down, and they chatted to us. They really encouraged us to sing (I need NO encouragement!). We must have sung 20 songs, and drank a bottle of Saki. Anyway, after an hour, I left, and told the consultants to pick up the tab. The next day, the consultants rang and asked for an advance on expenses. I said why? (They had left 10 minutes after us). I was expecting the bill to be £50/£60 - it was £550!! Apparently they charged for EVERY song I sang (!!!) and every girl who sat with us!

Maybe it was a Ralliart company (ouch, yes I know, below the belt!!) Sorry, diversion ,funny story though.... Had difficulty explaining that one to the finance guy - he was convinced the girls did more than chat - or for that money, he said I bloody hope they did!
 
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Discussion Starter #16
Did a bit of testing on my car today on how quickly the turbo spins up. I know I wrote before that I get positive boost from 2000rpm onwards, that is incorrect.

After trying several times in 2nd, 3rd, and 4th gear it seems the turbo starts to produce positive boost at some point between 2600rpm and 2800rpm and by the time it gets to 3500rpm its producing 1.35 bar. Having said that, the car is still very driveable below 2500rpm but it rarely gets below that in normal driving anyway.

The car has a lightweight flywheel so the car revs very freely and combined with the relatively shorter gearing (than my old GTiR) its no problem to keep the car on boost.

Si
 
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Discussion Starter #17
Simon

why dont you get your turbo to make some pressure? Sounds like your ECU could handle it.
 
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Discussion Starter #19
I just got a new Tuning book for the Evo here in Japan which is a lot better than the Hyper Rev book. It`s got shitloads of parts, tests, basically everything that is for sale for the Evos in Japan. There`s quite a few turbo kits out, most of them have been mentioned, another one worth mentioning is the Tomei kit which uses HKS turbos and has 2.2 liters. That engine is rated as 360 bhp and 50kgs torque (about 500Nm) with a very nice torque-powerband. Going to Tokyo again tomorrow and will try and buy another book cause I`m sure somebody will be interested. I`ll be back in Germany for Wednesday and can send the book (if I manage to buy another one) to whoever is interested. Actually I could copy the interesting pages... Maybe someone who has the ability to scan and host the whole book on a website should get it, so everyone can read it? Maybe a .pdf? Sorry I`m rambling on and on.... jetlag fuucks with your mind...
 
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Discussion Starter #20
A warning: this book will lead to you chucking even more money at the car, so don`t read it if you want to have a little break from tuning. The I want -factor is very big... talking of which, I need more money, have already planned this year`s bonus (hopefully I`ll get it), and you can guess once for what... don`t think my girlfriend is going to be happy. Does anyone know a plausible way to explain the need for new pistons and conrods to the female side and why I costs so much? Any help would be greatly appreciated
 
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