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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have new Tommi 4500 miles normal mods boost 1.2 HKS lowering springs, tyres good S01,s.I have been experencing the following.Savage understeer in the wet ,car has gone straight on,on many occasions,four wheel drifts before I have reached my limit,and very bad aquaplaning through puddles at speeds of 50 ,60mph while accelerating .I am losing confidence in the car ,whats the point of all that power if u cant use it. My M3 was much quicker in the wet .Where is the ledgendary EVO handling I am starting to wonder.PS I hold a competition licence have a lot of track experience and all my previous cars have been High performance .I would be gratefull for suggestions.Thank you
 
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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
Where any of you previous high performance cars four wheel drive?

What's your competition licence for?

With an understanding of what you're used to driving and amp; racing I expect someone on this board may be able to help
 
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Anarchist

Whatare you talking about? I had an M3, just spinning in the wet all the time!
What are you doing with lowering springs anyway? Get yourself some serious suspensions.
If the car understeers, floor it. I understand you have AYC, it understeers more because it doesnt oversteer. I am currently looking at getting rid of the AYC, maybe with a CUSCO unit (GBP 1,200), let's see.
 
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
You should have a look at your geometry settings, they can do big differences in handling!
The standard s01 are not that good, some people got problems with them, and as Claudius says, the springs are not a real improvement.

Try some pirelli p zero or yokohama avs or bridgestone s02 or s03, put more negative camber and right toe in, and buy serious suspensions as soon as possible like proflex gr.n(they are expensive but they have nothing to do with the standard ones).
Don't buy twin cylinder type suspensions as the street proflex or kw.
 
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Anarchist,

as Maxi and Claudius have said, forget the lowering springs and have your geometry checked. I had lowering springs (shitty PE) on my car before I got my Proflex suspension and it made the car understeer like a shopping trolley. I haven't had experience with HKS, but I know from a few suspension experts that if you lower the car too much you fück up the way the suspension is supposed to work. Your lower wishbone has to be at least parallel with the anti-roll bar. But the first thing that you should look at is the camber angles you have on your car. You always need more camber in the front to combat understeer. Try 2 degrees in the front and 1,5 degrees in the back and if that doesn't help get rid of the lowering springs. And as the other two said, S-O1 are quite bad in the wet.
 
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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Anarchist......
I have an E6gsr with Eibach progressive springs on it and to some degree I agree with you about the handling.I don`t feel that confident in the wet.I too had an M3E30 and that was probably about the best handling car I have ever driven wet or dry.
I did question Alan Zini at Dragon about the springs as I thought they let the car roll a little to much but he said that is what progressive springs do,they allow the car to roll first so it gives a better ride and then under load they stiffen up.Maybe you have them fitted to your car?
The only way you are going to get the car handle really well is to change the whole lot so you can set it to how you like it to be.
 
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Thank you for your comments and suggestions.To answer Claudious I raced Cateram 7 GroupA and Supercharged Rover Vitesse V8 in Thundersaloons.My previous cars since 1990 are Sierra Cosworth 4wd,Escort Cosworth 4wd,Audi S8 4wd,AC Ace 2wd,Porsche911 RS(993),BMW M3 Convertable with Sniztner suspension and engine mods,and now the Tommi.Before I fitted the HKS springs I viewed what appeared to be positive comments about them on this register.Today I am having the alignment checked .I would say that the standard Suspension is not suitable for English roads,for the track maybe if the car sat lower.I do not feel motivated to tune the suspension for the uk ,at my expense, so I will re-fit the standard springs .The SO1,s as has been mentioned are not a good tyre in the wet,which suprises me as one would think that a Rally car would come standard with a good all round tyre.I am therefore going to fit Pirrelli P Zeros as Im not a fan of Japanese tyres anyway .When I said understeers in the wet I should have said failed totally to turn in and no amount of power would have brought it back as the car goes straight on ,I had to lift, dab the brakes ,and then apply the power to bring the car back on line.If any one wants to purchase my HKS Springs they can Price £200.
 
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Just to clear up a point. AYC is there to REDUCE understeer.

I concur with all the other suggestions especially getting the geometry sorted.
 
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Front camber makes all the difference to the understeer. The HKS springs are far too hard for UK roads - the Eibachs are better, except for the roll. Probably best to stick to the standard suspension, or go for Proflex or Drummond. I found going beyond 2 degrees neg camber at the front improved things even more, although you do need to change bushes.

Driving a 4wd car is quite different to a powerful RWD car like the M3. I find that moving from my M5 to EVO and vice-versa. On the track, the understeer is very pronounced on the EVO, and can be like a front wheel car. Less camber at the back helps turn in, and dropping springs does change the geometry. Trail braking or left-foot braking will help you get round corners quicker, and flooring it to get the back out. Give it a little scandinavian flick - wish I could, looks bloody hard. Old Tiff Needell does it good though - seen his video with the EVO in?

The S01's are rubbish too, which you have worked out by now!
 
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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
I used to work with active 4WD systems and if all the above suggestions don't work, I should have the rear diff checked.

Although not that familiar with the EVO 6 system, if the rear diff is running too much pressure, (is too fully locked), this will result in severe understeer into corners as the rear diff pushes the car onwards and vicious oversteer out of the corner as power is applied.

Perhaps the system is running too much pressure or a solenoid is jammed.

Do some investigating as the AYC might not be working as it should.
 
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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
ANARCHIST

First of all i agree with anyone who says that so1's are shite in the wet.When i first drove my e6 in the wet i was very disapointed and experienced the same sort of syptons as you described in your post.I can remember thinking my integrale on goodyear f1 tyres is much better than this,so i took the integrale out on a set of my favourite bends ,it felt as though it had more grip than the evo and the tyres were definatly working better than the so1's(more progresive when slipping)and due to the excellent feel through the wheel it was very easy to know what limits the tyres had when cornering which inturn inspired confidence,but guess what? the integrale was actualy 7-10mph slower through the twisties than the evo.I put this down to the way the evo hides your actual speed and lack of steering feel through the wheel.for example you aproach a bend you brake to what you think is about the correct turn in speed but chances are your actualy going faster than what you think you start to turn but due to lack of steering feel you dont realy know how much grip the front tyres have and then due to way that so1's give way suddenly you end up with terminal understeer.So my advice is to slow down a bit more when aproaching a bend to keep more front end grip because your actualy going through it faster than what you think it just doesn't feel like it, thats the price you pay for gizmos like ayc highly effective just not much fun.
 
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
HH6

AYC is there to reduce the oversteer of the back. right? That's why it doesnt oversteer. Which induces understeer.
 
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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
silver7 - I found that uprating the top mounts (or using pillowball mounts), with a strut brace, and upping the steering and suspension front bushing removes the dead steering feel, and makes wet and ice driving much more predictable - bit more vibration, but that's a price I pay for keener handling.
 
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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Your M3 must have been an experimental 4wd version as the one i tried to drive to London and back late at night in the rain was terrible !
I had to keep turning the fan and wipers off to tell by the engine note if we were still spinning or had hooked up !
i woke my son up with the whiplash of one roundabout exit slide

Pirelli old hat nowadays...So2 an improvement
there is something wrong if you are spinning under acceleration

you said before you reached your limit ? explain
 
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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
AYC alters the speed of the left and right rear wheels to reduce understeer.

Any Front-engined AWD car will understeer, AYC tries to get rid of it by basically making the rear 'looser', without using something crude like a big ,thick rear anti-roll bar.

At least that was my understanding....http://www.ltregister.f9.co.uk/graphics/happy1.gif border|EQU| 0 align|EQU| absmiddle > I don't have it on mine.

TonyC
 
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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Yes, AYC will do this but too late on tightish turns. If you trust AYC to sort that problem out, you'll off the road with the wrong setup, especially as it only works when you're on the throttle so braking into corners it won't help. On high speed turns the AYC will make the car go through the corner in a sort of wavy motion of alternating over- and understeer. Very unnnerving....
 
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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
I have noticed understeer in the wet, espescially on roundabouts. lowered springs also. I will have to get round to looking at the camber settings too.
 
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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Just one more point, people suggest more than 2 degrees of camber in the front but that is the maximum with the standard suspension. I agree that more than 2 is significantly better, as I moved up to 2,3 myself and the difference is quite something.
 
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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Claudius,
AYC is there to reduce UNDERSTEER. As WhiteII says all front engine AWD cars have a tendancy to understeer. To combat it AYC creates a Yaw moment by transfering torque between the rear wheels. Have a search through this forum for AYC and you will find a more complete explanation by me.
 
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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
OK, maybe it reduces unsersteer to some degree, but I am very confused about the fact that there is no oversteer!
 
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