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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Ok guys, got a letter on the 23rd December telling me that a court summons would be applied for if I didn't reply to the nip that had been sent to me previously, obviously they were closed over xmas, so rang them on the 27th december to findout what they were talking about, as I hadn't received anything other than this letter.

Anyway turns out I had been caught speeding (62mph in a 50) by 1 of those damn vans back in october.

Anyway they sent me the nip again, and it gave me some options.

Pay fixed penalty etc, dispute it and go to court, or give name of person that was driving if it wasn't me.

Or if I wasn't sure then contact the camera office and they would check the video or photographic evidence for me to see if it would be any help.

Anyway as it was so long ago now, I don't know who was driving, so I rang them and asked for the photo.

The women I spoke to assured me it was a very clear pic and would help me to discover who was driving without question.

Well the pictures (yes they sent me 2) arrived today, and i have to say you can't see the driver clearly at all.

I mean you can see someone sat in the driving seat, but you can't see a face, infact all you can see is a white shirt. Looks like in 1 of the pics an arm is covering the face, and it's a dark picture anyway.

In the other pic, it's a distance shot so the drivers head is about 1mm in size and again it's out of focus all you can see is that it's a white person driving.

So what do i do now ?

It was back in october this offence occured, and it could be 1 of 5 people driving the car that day (I am 1 of the 5) but I really don't know if it was me or not.

Do I just ring them and ask if they have a better photo ?

Ask to take it to court ?

Or just ignore it as im not going to take 3 points and a £60 fine when it might not have been me driving at the time.

The car is a company car btw, not my evo (as I don't let anyone drive the evo).

Any advise (as long as it's sensible) is welcome.

Thanks in advance.
 

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If you never received anything untill this recent letter then I doubt they can do much more. It's up to them to make sure you get the NIP within 14 days of the offence or they can't pursue it any further. These NIP's are supposed to be sent recorded so ask them to show you a signature of delivery. If it wasn't delivered then they will need a reason why. If it's a company car and your name wasn't the registered one then also check they got the NIP to the registered owner within 14 days
 

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I believe there was a case mentioned on other forums where a guy who had been doing a tip run on the day his car was caught speeding eventually got away with no points to anyone because he said that he couldn't be sure who was driving as 5 people had driven the car on that route very close to the time of the speeding.

The police just won't roll over though, they will probably try to intimidade you into naming someone, by saying you should have known who was driving, but as long as you name the people who it could have been, and can prove that they were insured to drive the car, and they will confirm your story, then I think it's highly unlikely they'll take it all the way to court.

I'm not an expert though and speaking to a specialist solicitor is probably the best advice.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I think they sent the nip originally to the company I work for, who then gave them my details, as it's my company car, but not registered to me, incase I quite the company and keep the car I guess.

However as said they didn't actually send the original nip to me, or atleast if they did it never arrived.

Once I rang them and told them I didn't receive it, they sent me another with a new date on the nip to start the 28 days to reply again.

But it was sent normal 1st class and took a week to arrive, but thats xmas / new yr post for you.

They said they sent me the original nip on the 20th or 28th nov, thats the 1 that didn't get to me.

So if I just fill in the form with names of everyone that could have been driving that day and let them deal with it ?

Or just fill in the form to take it to court ? and then tell them it could have been anyone of 5 people driving at that point ?

After all the courts will have the same photo's as they sent me won't they ?
 

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I suggest you ring them up and ask what to do.

I was in a similar position and tried the old "I don't know who was driving (my Co car)" but unfortunatley the photo albeit blurred was definatley me so I had to take it on the chin.

(81 on an empty m/way on a Sat morning) :mad:
 

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Find out if the original NIP was received within the 14 days first. If you genuinely can't identify the driver from the photos and all the others can prove they were insured then I doubt the courts can do much. After all it's up to the scamera operators to provide clear enough evidence to prove it was you.

If it's a company car then the company have to keep a log of who was driving it and when. If they didn't keep the log then it's the company who will get the fine but no points can be allocated due to no proof as to which licence to endorse.

I'd take it to court for sure, especially if the photos aren't clear. You have a real chance of getting off with it (in my opinion :D )
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
RSgeoff said:
I suggest you ring them up and ask what to do.

I was in a similar position and tried the old "I don't know who was driving (my Co car)" but unfortunatley the photo albeit blurred was definatley me so I had to take it on the chin.

(81 on an empty m/way on a Sat morning) :mad:
Thats the thing, if I could tell it was me, then i'd just take it.

But the pics are that crap you can't see who is driving.

1 pic is close up, but there is a massive shaddow and an arm covering the face.

The other is from such a distance that even the reg plate isn't very clear.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 · (Edited)
Madmac said:
Find out if the original NIP was received within the 14 days first. If you genuinely can't identify the driver from the photos and all the others can prove they were insured then I doubt the courts can do much. After all it's up to the scamera operators to provide clear enough evidence to prove it was you.

If it's a company car then the company have to keep a log of who was driving it and when. If they didn't keep the log then it's the company who will get the fine but no points can be allocated due to no proof as to which licence to endorse.

I'd take it to court for sure, especially if the photos aren't clear. You have a real chance of getting off with it (in my opinion :D )
The car is covered by company insurance, and the other guys that had access to the car work for the same company as me.

So they are all covered to drive this car and infact any other (we collect and deliver cars for a living), so we are all covered to drive any car thats in our possesion.

As for company keeping a log, then that would be down to me :cry: as far as the company are concerned it should be me driving it, but during october, november and december I wasn't feeling my best, so on some journeys we did in those months I got 1 of the other guys I work with to drive at various times.

Chances are the original NIP was sent to the company within 14 days, as I was off work for a week starting the 13th Nov, and I had a phone call on the 16th Nov from my regional manager to say I had a speeding ticket on it's way.
 

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Your best bet m8 would be as mentioned before try stating it could be 1 of 5 people not just yourself and see where it goes from there.
Pretty shitty of your company tho to just supply your address etc when it could have 4 others???
Also be prepared for serious shite of your local cops if they realise your going against the claim.....
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
jacelvis said:
Your best bet m8 would be as mentioned before try stating it could be 1 of 5 people not just yourself and see where it goes from there.
Pretty shitty of your company tho to just supply your address etc when it could have 4 others???
Also be prepared for serious shite of your local cops if they realise your going against the claim.....
The company wouldn't assume it would be anyone else driving the car.

They don't like it when we let others drive the car, altho we have been told it is ok, if that makes sense.

As for the local cops, well this isn't in my local area.

it's about 50 - 60 miles away from my area.
 

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Send it back saying you want to take it to court and they'll realise they can't prove it was you and drop the case. They may take it right up to the court date to see if you crack but then drop it at the last minute.

I know of a couple who had the same thing happen, both of them could have had the car that day/time so the court asked for proof of insurance, licences etc to show they were both legal to drive the car but because the photos were so poor they were admonished.

If you go to the ABD website, I think there's a link to contact their specialist solicitor for a quick chat. www.abd.org.uk
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Madmac said:
Send it back saying you want to take it to court and they'll realise they can't prove it was you and drop the case. They may take it right up to the court date to see if you crack but then drop it at the last minute.

I know of a couple who had the same thing happen, both of them could have had the car that day/time so the court asked for proof of insurance, licences etc to show they were both legal to drive the car but because the photos were so poor they were admonished.

If you go to the ABD website, I think there's a link to contact their specialist solicitor for a quick chat. www.abd.org.uk
Cheers for the link mate, got a couple of numbers to call tomorrow.

Do you think it's worth me ringing the "saftey camera office" and asking if they have a better photo they can send me ?

Or just speak to the solicitors and see what they say ?
 

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I guess if you call them and show genuine concern and that you're willing to accept it was you if they can prove from the photos then it'll go in your favour. See what the ABD solicitor says and keep us posted.

It's only £15 to join ABD, well worth it and you get the 'On The Road' magazine every quarter too
 

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Madmac said:
If you never received anything untill this recent letter then I doubt they can do much more. It's up to them to make sure you get the NIP within 14 days of the offence
No, they only need to send it within 14 days. When you get it, or if you get it at all, is irrelevant.
 

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What Aidy says is absolutely true.

Anyway, this "might" help, if you're willing to give it a go:

A simple letter using legal wording has opened up a new route to get speeding charges dropped, according to experts. The statement is at the centre of a high court appeal to be heard this summer. but for now police forces accross the country are dropping cases when it has been used. People accused of speeding have been simply been sending in the statement in response to NOTICES OF PROSECUTION (NIPS).

Speed cameras rely on a law requiring you to say who was driving your car at the time of the alledged offence. Not saying who it was will lead to a charge of withholding information under section 172 of the road traffic act, While admitting to being the driver will lead to a fixed penalty for speeding.
But another law says that before suspects are questioned about an offence they should receive a formal caution - and no caution is given when a speeding notice is delivered through the post.

The standard statement below, is designed to accompany an admission to being the driver. It points out that, since no caution has been given, the admission cannot be used as evidence in court.

Specialist road traffic lawyer Robert Dobson whos clients case is to be heard by the high court says " In English law there's a requirement that if a statement is going to be used against somebody, that person has to be cautioned under section 78 of the police and criminal evidence act. If a caution hasn't been given, then the argument runs that anything that's said cannot be used as evidence in court. We've complied with section 172 of the road traffic act by identifying the driver. But what we are saying is that we're not going to allow that information to be then used against us. Any charge under section 172 must fail as we have complied. And if any charge is brought for speeding we'll say how do you know who was driving?"

The loophole letter called the PACE Witness Statement is a catch 22 for police and camera partnerships according to Dobson.

Even though someone has admitted to being the driver, that admission can't be used against him as he didn't recieve a caution. If an officer then visits him to issue a caution then only statements after said caution can be used and the caution gives the right to silence.

Forces have dropped cases all over the country. very few people who have used this letter have been convicted. The met and many more forces have not issued summons to anybody who has sent the statement back.

Remember different forces reach different decisions and there is no guarrantee that a case will be dropped.

THE PACE WITNESS STATEMENT

If your car is snapped speeding you will be sent a notice of intended prosecution asking who was driving. If it was you and you want to respond with a PACE statement fill out the form by writing "Please see the attached" where it asks for details. Then attach a letter with the standard wording shown below.
Code:INSERT YOUR REGISTRATION NUMBER HERE]

DEAR CHIEF CONSTABLE.

Further to the above Notice of Intended Prosecution, I confirm That the following individual was driving the above vehicle at the time of the alledged motoring offence.

[INSERT ALL THE DETAILS ASKED FOR ON THE NIP HERE, INCLUDING NAME ADDRESS, DATE OF BIRTH AND DRIVER NUMBER]

As this statement is provided under the threat of criminal penalty (funke v France) and as I have not received the caution required by paragraph 10.1 of PACE Code C (Mawdesley v the Chief Constable of Cheshire (2004) 1 All E.R.58 ), I make this statement on the express understanding that it shall not be used or disclosed in any proceedings of whatever nature against myself.

Yours Sincerely

[INSERT YOUR SIGNATURE HERE]

[INSERT YOUR NAME IN PRINT HERE]

Looks and sounds complicated but basically they can't use your details in court because noone said "you have the right to remain silent" to you before they sent the letter out to you.

This can be found at www.pepipoo.com, an anti speed camera campaigners website which is funding the high court appeal.

It might work it might not, but if it saves you £60 and 3 points why not try it
 

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I thought this had been found to be next to useless unless the force in question was so overwhelmed with a backlog of tickets that they were looking for any excuse to drop a prosecution?

Weren't the legal cases mentioned in the PACE letter decided last summer in favour of the prosecution?
 

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^^ I thought so as well.

There were also few reports of late, one in Auto Express late last year, stating that a lot of things on this site and other of a similar nature were just nonsense, or accurate but useless as a defence/way of avoiding fine sort of way.

Cheers
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Well I've spoken to a solicitor, and basicly if I was or wasn't driving is irrelivent unless I can prove it wasn't me driving.

However if I can prove it wasn't me driving, then I need to show why it wasn't me and why I don't know who it was at the time of the offecence.

This also means the company I work for will need to get involved to provide evidence for this that and the other.

Sounds like i'm just going to have to take it.

The only other thing he said was, they have 6 months to prosicute from date of offence, he said IF i can drag it out until the 30th of april then there is nothing they can do to me.

Somehow i don't think that is likely.

He did also say it's worth contacting the camera office to see if they have any clearer photo's.
 
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