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Discussion Starter #1
Problem: An Evo 7 is going to be built up for endurance racing on the Ring. The team would like to have ABS but not AYC!

How to go about?

Get a RS and install ABS? Is that possible? Who can do it?

Or get a GSR and take out the AYC? Possible?

Which is the better solution??
 
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Discussion Starter #2
I guess it's easier to take out the AYC than to add ABS. But for an endurance race, you should have as little weight as possible, therefore take the lighter car. Now why would you want ABS in an endurance car? They are usually driven by people who know how to drive, right? - Oh, for Dutch drivers? :D Maybe keep the AYC as well LOL
 
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Discussion Starter #3
Endurance racing in a 7, jeez they have an even smaller tank than a 6.

Claudius is right though, if you really want ABS then it would be easier to for GSR and remove AYC. But why have ABS?
 
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Discussion Starter #4
This sounds crazy! You don't need ABS! My 6 RS doesn't even lock up it's brakes (with AP's on) - it is only the shitty Brembo's that lock-up. If they are racing, and proper drivers, then you would use lock-up to get round quicker.

Sounds like amateurs! A pro would NEVER use ABS - a pro wants to control the car themselves, not with electronics.

Jeez, real purists won't even have servos or power steering!!

As for endurance - Lol! They would at the minimum need to fit a second tank (80l in the spare wheel well). Not cheap that though...
 
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Discussion Starter #5
Claudius, I was hoping to get more knowledgeable answeres, not `I guess....' and btw the drivers are 3 Germans (like you) and one British.

They want ABS, because two of the drivers are amateurs (executives of a well known autosport company) and the two Pro`s think that ABS wil help the `gentleman racers` a lot in the rain. And it does get rather slimy on the Ring.

A big tank will be fitted: the whole car will be taken apart and get re-done. Yes, even more extreme than Blade`s excellent machine.

A 6 has been used already in the 24h endurance race on the Ring. It did very well: 6th overall!

But this team wants ABS!

Solutions/suggestions??
 
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Discussion Starter #6
You can take out the AYC and replace with another LSD. I dont know how you fit an ABS to a car, and I never would want to. See what I think about Germans in the General Discussion / continental trip topic
 
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Discussion Starter #7
If you knew the Ring then you wouldn't ask why ABS. Especially in the night and rain. Didn't a British F1 team introduce ABS in F1 which then was banned after one season? The car was driven by a certain 4 times World Champion.

Gerrit, next week (if my bloody hurting back allows it) I'm at a certain race and rally car specialist. I'll ask them.

Mike
 
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Discussion Starter #8
I'v forgot to mention, the new Citroen WRC car of Bugalski was equipped with ABS when they won the German Rally this year. Makes you think.

Mike
 
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Discussion Starter #9
99 % of drivers would crash without abs,or certainly be slower
f1 use power steering
all this i dont need abs is pub talk,along with bikes that power wheelie in the first 3 gears
abs saved my life 100,s of times
 
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Discussion Starter #10
Interesting comments about abs guys!

My experience on the Ring (no abs in my 6) is that you need it in the rain. In the dry, I rather not have it. In situations where the car becomes 'light' (ex. Flugplatz), it is better not to have it, because an abs equipped car would not slow down much. Also, when spinníng the car, a non-abs car will stop sooner.
I experienced this recently after the Fuchsröhre: tail came out at ca. 170 km/h. Once I knew I could not control the car anymore, all I could do was brake hard while turning around. I was lucky: did not hit anything. Maybe in this case abs would have increased the stopping distance as well.

In normal driving on the roads, I would always want abs!

But what about the race car Evo 7? Who can install ABS into an RS? Costs? Or as Claudius pionts out: put a LSD into a GSR??

Mike, it would be interesting to hear from your specialist!
 
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Discussion Starter #11
Mmm - well I find that ABS on a track tends to engage when you don't want it to, increasing your stopping times, and ultimately making you slower. A good track brake setup won't lockup anyway. Lock-up doesn't happen with competition tyres, and is more of a trait of a road car, and I agree ABS is far safer on the road. In ultra wet conditions, ABS will help. It sounds like the drivers aren't professionals, so ABS could be a good idea to save you from a bent car!

I would suggest a rally car could benefit from ABS particularly when driving on slippery surfaces.

The ring is a circuit at the end of the day, albeit a long twisty one.

Anyway - to retrofit ABS is difficult - requiring speed sensors, ABS control unit, and the modulation unit etc, etc. Not impossible, but difficult. Following Claudius's advice - get a GSR and change the diffs to LSDs. The longer GSR gearing will be beneficial on the long nring straights anyway.

Interesting point - when I got my RSX (no ABS), I found the wheels locked up all the time - was so ####ed off, infact it caused me to slide off the road and bend a wheel/kingpin etc. I actually looked at retro fitting ABS as a result - it was too costly and prone to failure retrofitted. I don't get lockup now, because the car has so much ####in grip, and massive AP brakes - it really is astonishing. ABS would actually greatly reduce the quality of the braking now - the sensors would become confused by the very rapid braking and high grip - and cut in unnecessarily. Even the Sports ABS of the EVO.

You can turn ABS off - with a carefully fitted switch to disengage the control unit.

What about modulating the brakes the old fashioned way, with your foot!?!
 
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Discussion Starter #12
Pluto - Non-ABS is not just pub talk. Many circuit drivers use lockup as a directional aid to get round corners quicker - not me, sounds too ####in' dangerous!

I agree completely that a good ABS setup is better than a **** non-ABS setup. But a good non-ABS setup is far better than an good ABS setup on the track.
 
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Discussion Starter #13
Blade, good piont about the taller gearing on the GSR!

But is the electronic control of the AYC linked to the electronically controlled center diff? Do you have to replace 'computers' when replacing the AYC with a LSD?
 
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Discussion Starter #14
try driving a normal everyday car without abs for a while,normal everyday driving.
The clouds of blue smoke from the tyres wafting past your windscreen,along with lots of steering wheel wrestling, when you panic brake for the first time as someone pulls out on you ,will give you an indication of how we take abs and cars like the evo for granted after a very short time

yes racing cars/ drivers dont use it,but thats not a fair comparison

if f1 allowed abs would the laptimes drop ???? abs is traction control for the brakes after all !

although,i did find my 1986 ur quattro stopped better in snow with abs turned off !!!

switchable is maybe the ultimate ??

vorsprung dork clever bastirds 15 years ago
 
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Discussion Starter #15
Blade

Sorry to disagree with you, as you are usually spot on, but your comment that lock up doesn't happen with a good track brake set up or on competition tyres is, IMHO, bull. Ever watched BTCC races? or for that matter any racing class with choice of brakes/tyres? They lock up. The reason that you aren't getting into trouble yet is, that by your own admission, you still have some way until you are totally flat out. No reflection on you, and I wonder how you will feel in a years time when you have fully got to grips with your beast and can drive it at 10/10. I suspect that you will get some lock up then.
 
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Discussion Starter #16
Blade is totally right about the ABS being BS. It's good for people who dont know how to drive. Try getting closer to the limit, taking the back with you into the corner, accelerating earlier making the car slide into the coirrect position to floor it asap.
 
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Discussion Starter #19
Simon,

That depends alot on the car in question, as different race formulas have different brake setups. Regulations some times force a braking setup that isn't the optimum, as with tyres to keep track speeds down, and in theory safety high.

As for your comment about driving - well! Driving at 10/10 has nothing to do with locking up the brakes - as I said, the better the driver, the less he uses the brakes. Good fast driving on the track is about keeping the car balanced at all times, and limiting weight transference - locking up your wheels, implies braking v. hard, implies bad balance, implies not driving at 10/10s, but driving badly. The better the driver I have become, the less I have locked up the brakes, not the other way round. Braking is always in a straight line, firm but progressive (apart from trail-braking of course!). ABS would definitely be a hinderance. With the current braking setup, I can accelerate/brake where other people have to balance their throttle, simply because I can firmly get on the brake, and quickly get off it without upsetting the car's balance. ABS would have kicked in and prevented me from getting on and off the brake quick enough.

Of course you could also come to Donnington on 31/10 or 19/11, or Goodwood on 12/11 and I will 1)Take you round, and 2)Let Ed Moore (ex-Formula Ford champion, and current FF racer) take you round. Ed is obviously much quicker, but I am not exactly slow! :D :D

I 100% agree with ABS on a road car. Switching the subject v.quickly - did anyone see the CAR magazine incident when they crashed a Tuscan in Wales (into a wall no less). The said - oh, if it had ABS, we would have been ok. What crap! Driver aids are only driver aids if they contribute to making the car quicker, they shouldn't be a subtitute for driver skill. He crashed the car through crap driving - cars don't crash themselves!

Monday - at Croft - there was a big off - it was a Skyline GTR-33 - the car which has so many driver aids, it nearly drives itself! The guy crashed within half an hour, hitting armco and everything, locking up etc. - drove the car badly. The two fastest cars on the circuit? Mine, and a race prepped Caterham - neither with ABS, but both with good drivers!

This whole topic is within the context of a RACE PREPARED 7 not a road car! I suggest ABS won't stop people crashing if their driving is crap in the first place!
 
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Discussion Starter #20
N.ring - not sure about the transfer box etc. - with the 7 having fancy control of power split, these computers are linked. It was easier on the 6 I think - just replace the diffs.

Thinking about it abit more, it probably is cheaper to fit ABS. I think you need different drive shafts with ABS as well. A quick glance at the Co-ordsport parts list will help - it lists brake parts as ABS/Non-ABS if I recall.

If you want to leave the car safe for gentleman drivers, why not just leave the AYC in? Spend the money on a power upgrade to compensate for the extra weight, and uprate the brakes too. Won't change fuel economy that much, but means a difference of 100kgs in weight.

Or save yourself alot of hassle and drop the ABS too! Is there not a model of the 7 with the GSR gearing, but no ABS/AYC, like the RS2 on the 6?
 
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