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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
It would seem that we have created some confusion with our re-mapped ECU’s for the EVO5-6. I apologise for this and hope this perhaps explains what we can and do do in more detail.

We generally do not have the time to read and respond to much on this excellent forum but I thought that we should clear a few things up.


We have the ability to read the data from any ECU in the 5 or 6 range. We also can then interpret this hexadecimal data using further software enabling us to specifically alter exact mapping characteristics.

We have access to areas such as ignition and fuel maps. (There are more than one of each). Boost solenoid duty cycle maps, (it is more complex than putting in a boost pressure requirement), rev limits, boost limits, idle maps. We also have data on map scaling tables, injector scaling, air flow meter scaling and calibration features.

However having extracted the data from the ECU and modified it, we cannot put that data back into the ECU. The reason is that the processor on the board is one time programmable only. This means we have to change this processor (not an easy exercise) to another with exactly the same specification apart from the fact that this one allows multiple flash programming (by us only).

This then allows us to download any mapping data we require into the modified ECU. This we can do as many times as we like.

The modified ECU is undetectable from the standard one and retains all of the functionality of the factory unit. There is no dealer in the country, using diagnostic equipment, who can tell that the ECU has been altered. It is all but impossible to tell with the naked eye.

So you can see where the stories about a replacement chip come from. Hopefully you understand where a lot of the cost comes from. These are expensive processors and changing a soldered-on chip which has one hundred and twelve legs which are a quarter of a millimetre wide is no mean feat.

Our first development when mapping the EVO6 was to re-map it for 95 octane fuel with better fuel economy and no loss of power. This we were asked to do by a well know EVO specialist at the time. However this did not work out so we continued the development on our own.

There has been some confusion over exactly what we can and do do with the ECU’s. There have been doubts on here that we can actually custom map your car.

To answer this:
Because of the huge number of these conversions we have carried out we now have a database of perhaps 30 programmes ( I am writing this at home so I cannot check) some examples of these would be.

Car - Exhaust - Cams - Fuel - Fuel pump - Boost
TM6 Standard std 95 std 1.1
5 GSR PE full std 98 PE 1.5
6 RS Magnex std 98 std 1.3
6 GSR HKS 272/264 91 PE 1.4
Add into this, water injection, different intercoolers, turbos, injectors, etc, etc.

This gives us an extremely good base on which to offer a conversion. However if having carried out the conversion, using a program in our database, there is something out of spec (i.e. boost pressure out or fuelling wrong) then we will custom map your car. This is included in the cost. Some cars can take 4 hours and another 8. Every car that is booked in with us for this work is checked before and fully tested and set up on the dyno. It is a safeguard for us (that the upgrade is working as we promised) and for you that the car is in fact faster (or safer, as a lot of the conversions we do are to improve the engine safety rather than out and out power)

We carry out as many ECU conversions out of the country for tuning companies and private customers around the world as we do in our workshops. These are of course all done on an exchange basis with programs based on the information given by our customers. We have modified ECU’s running cars on 89 to 140 octane fuel in countries all over Europe and as far a field as South Africa, India, New Zealand, Japan, North and South America.

We have carried out ECU mapping for most companies in this country you have heard of (and some you haven’t).

I hope this clears up exactly what we are capable of.

Regarding price. We charge £550 |PLS| vat for the exchange ECU conversion to whatever spec is required. If we fit the ECU and carry out the dyno testing and calibration then the price is £865 |PLS|vat. Please also bear in mind that the converted ECU is now re-programmable at any stage. If you change the spec of the car then it can be further re-programmed at the normal costs associated with dyno time.

We prefer to actually convert your ECU. This is so that we can extract your original data and modify that rather than using a standard basic format. There are different format programmes within different ECU numbers and we prefer to work with the OE data your car is running on.


There have also been comments about our staff, pricing and service. I apologise if anyone has received service from us which is not what you would expect. It is no excuse but we are a busy company carrying out a lot of work. We have a very busy workshop and the 2 dynos are booked up usually up to 2 weeks in advance. This can lead to problems. We do take our work very seriously and we have some excellent staff. Hopefully some of you have met Mervyn and Chris (on the dynos) and know by talking to them of their extensive knowledge over a very wide area of tuning, from engineering to electronics and programming. However as a company we do not have the slick sales and marketing that perhaps is expected of us.

However we hope that will improve with a customer focused new partner joining us. His name is Robert Sheard.


Finally there have been some questions about the cost of our exhaust.

We export about 40% of our turnover in parts sales. When developing the exhaust we wanted to produce the ultimate system. That term has to mean a number of things. Ultimate in terms of fit, quality of manufacture, performance, sound and appearance. Because we supply exhausts all over the world it also had to pass strict emission tests. We do not believe in marketing something which even in this country is bordering on illegal. It is not fair to sell a product which could land you in trouble either in a drive-by test in the UK or a roadside stop in Europe.

We also wanted to combine the special turbo outlet which is very popular on tuned EVO’s in Japan. Because we wanted a specific flow through the exhaust it was not possible to make it mate up to any of the original equipment flanges. It has been designed as a front to back system. (However we do now offer an adaptor to connect our front downpipe to the standard system) The catalysts we have used is one we have a lot of experience with. We have been using it for 8 years on systems for the Escort Cosworth and Impreza. We know that even at 400bhp it offer no power restriction when compared to our system without a catalyst.

The rear silencer requires the two tailpipes to ensure enough flow whilst the internal design of the rear silencer means we have a quiet exhaust with a nice deep sound.
When the cost of the front elbow (from HKS for example) and the very efficient catalyst is taken into account as well as the overall quality of the system you can see that for what it offers it is well priced. It is not cheap.

I hope this helps in some way to clear up any misconceptions about us and our products.

Sorry for taking up so much space on your forum.
 
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
David,thanks for your explanation Im sure that has made your ECU re-mapping more understandable to many people including myself.

Just one question.as Blade is now selling his Power Engineering ECU for £400 and replacing it with a Gems does that mean there is a limit to how far you can go?If that is the case what is the limit,and why is there a limit,I would be interested to know.Also if one has spent considerable money on several re-maps as one changes the tune of ones car,do you give some sort of refund when your ECU becomes redundant,to assist in the purchase of a replacement ECU,or would you suggest one decides early on how far one wishes to go with ones tuning and if the final stage of tune falls outside the area of your re-mapping would you decide to fit a Gems or Motech at the beginning as in the long run it might be more cost effective,what would you consider to be best advice.


The reason I ask this is that RC Developements have agreed with me that should at a later date I change to a fully programmable ECU they will take back my Apexis and give me a full refund against my new ECU which means I wont be out of pocket.What is your policy on this?Do you refund the initial cost of £550 against a new ECU,and if you don't would you.It would certainly benefit MLR members who are thinking of purchasing you ECU and give them some future comfort.

Thanks Barry:)
 
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Barry - the reason for changing ECU is because I originally picked the wrong boost controller. I need RPM mappable boost, which the Blitz doesn't provide. The ECU functions from the PE ECU are perfect, but don't offer boost mapping - which is why you need a boost controller.

Now, add into the equation that I have water injection, and I want to map it - I could get the MRL unit from Aquamist, or use an after market ECU.
Now, add into the equation that I want full data logging for all the engine parameters - which the standard ECU cannot do.

I could buy an Apexi AVC-R to do the boost mapping, and expand my Stack dash to do the data logging and happily retain the PE ECU which is all the technical functions and more that I need. But the cheapest option by far is to take the GEMS.

What you are missing is that most people are not like me. They want more performance from their cars, possibly retaining their warranty and to not worry about the downsides of an after market ECU - for which there are plenty. I am building a racing car here, not a road car, so I am not the best model to use at all. MC Custard is a better example - his car generates far more power than yours, and more even than mine - and has a PE ECU remap. As does EVOboys, as does Yellow5, as do many people on this forum.

The terms I agree with Power Engineering are between me and PE.

IMHO 50% of EVO owners change the exhaust and filter, and not much more. Another 30% go for the Apexi stuff, or the PE remap. 18% go abit further, like yourself and MC custard and 2% like me loose all common sense and go mad. You can't use me or anyone like me as a typical customer - we are not.

I have changed every part of my car, and several parts have been changed several times.

I would say for 98% of EVO owners the PE remap, coupled with an Apexi AVC-R has got to be the best combination. For the weird 2% (like me) - you need total flexibility. The GEMS does is not really suitable for a road car IMHO, neither is the Motec. For reliable power, the original ECU remapped by PE is very hard to beat.

I didn't even think to ask for a trade because I have had the ECU for nearly a year, and been happy with it. My needs have moved on, and I am an unusual case. Choosing the GEMS has been extremely difficult, and it is the datalogging and need for rpm boost that has swung it, not the fuel or ignition control capability. Why are you having to abandon your Apexi gear? Is that not able to manage your engine anymore? Perhaps you need datalogging too....
 
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
WITH HINDSIGHT !
if i lived near R C ,i would use them
if i lived near P.E.,i would use them
i dont know where M.A. Devs is,but i have only ever heard good reports about them,but have not used them myself.

The p.e. remap released 20bhp and about the same in foot pounds,we did do before and after runs with sport ecu ,and a MUT2 connected.
Not just that,the car is so much more tractable
Personally,i wish i had got EITHER the Apexi gear ,or a P.E. remap a year ago.
But i did say,with hindsight,and i have learnt a lot in that year,i could get 380 now for half what its cost me.
PLEASE NOTE,this info is from someone who has actually tuned their car,not talked about it.

i believe the sport ecu has a limit of around 360bhp,if you want more,you need an ecu,or a std ecu as R.C. have more experiance with the std one.
The sport retards ignition at the top revs,so no matter how high you turn the boost up,you cannot stop the power tailing off after 6000rpm.

so my advice to anyone considering tuning is either,use a company listed above....
or read this board,find a knowledgable local technician,do your homework and do it yourself.
350 bhp (if we believe any rolling road) is relatively easily done
 
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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
blade,
i do not see why you cannot do as i am,and change the blitz boost controller for apexi
i will be running the aquamist,but the simple one thats boost signalled....i dont see the need for complicating it more than that.
 
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Blade my question was directed at David Power,and I never suggested that you divulge any personal financial arrangements you had with PE.

And Tony dont do what Simon does attempt to twist what I say.I never said I am abandoning my Apexi Kit,I just said that if at a later date I chose to go fully programmable I would get a refund.

I believe that what I said was relevant,obviously you dont agree,but then again you would'nt would you,can I take it that your reply was on behalf of PE,or shall I wait for David to reply, to have all my questions answered?

If your not carefull this thread will go the way of so many others,I believe my questions are valid.
 
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Barry, as you mentioned me directly in my post, I took the opportunity to answer your question.

I did misread your post about the Apexi stuff, thought you said you were changing now - and I was understandably curious, as you are.

I do think what you said was relevant and wasn't trying to twist anything - don't get paranoid!
 
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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Barry

You have my interest. I know I should ask Clive this question but are you telling us that the offer made to you by RC is one they would make to everybody. If so, that is a really good offer that will certainly get me thinking.
 
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Blade,I dont get paranoid about you and Simon,in fact I am gratefull that the pair of you are so transparent and predictable..........thats why I find you both so entertaining.:)
 
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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
I have always maintained, if you want the best out of your car,
you need to have your fuel/ignition custom mapped to match the mods
youv'e done and the fuel you use.

When I heard PE could do this with a stock ECU without the need to fit
a Motec/gems/autronic etc etc , it seemed too good to be true,
all the important benefits of an aftermarket ECU without the hassle and
expense of custom mapping one from scratch.

Unless your building a track/rally car or mega powered road car,
the PE re-map , in my honest opinion is the best option;
if I was to buy a standard evo tomorrow, id be straight up to PE
for a remap !


Justin Foden
Torque IC
 
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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
What do you guys reckon. I currently have a Sports ECU and especially torque is not the strongest point of it. So is it worth for me to upgrade to the PE ECU? I ask this because I'm not licated in the UK so a remap on the rollers isn't possible. So would it make a difference for me?
What caught my attention is the fact that the car according to Stuart (MC Custard) is more tractable and responsive so exactly what I need for our mountain roads. It also seems that PE get better power and torque with a safer map.

Cheers in advance for every input

Mike
 
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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
i honestly believe if you give them the spec,then the parameters they put in will be fine,
i did this,and they actually used blades car to test the map
only difference is,i have adjustable fuel pressure,so i have now put pressure back to std,as the mapping assumes std base pressure.
Mervyn is on holiday for..........ages.

there is a new apexi stand alone ecu now available..which sounds good and maybe should be considered as an alternative.

never ending isnt it !
 
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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
ScoobyMike,

I'm in France, i should receive my PE ECU in the following days, i'll let you know if i feel the difference without having done the fine tuning on the PE RR.

In the following weeks, i'll do a RR session in belgium in order to have the real power of my car, i'll post the result on www.lancer.fr.st

V
Mike http://www.lancer.fr.st
 
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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
i did this,and they actually used blades car to test the map

What!?!? They could have asked ME first!

Perhaps I can reverse charge them :D
 
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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Mates

sounds good then. I think with a map suitable for 98ron (available here everywhere) and around 1.5 bar boost (with my MBC) it should be enough to satisfy my needs (at least for this season!). Before I depart with my Sports ECU I'll just wait for the feedback from Mike (Belgium6).

Cheers

Mike
 
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