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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Has anybody had the Power Engineering re-mapping done to their ECU to allow it to run on 95 RON unleaded, as well as a power boost. I am considering having it done, but other tuners I have spoken to are sceptical – is this because they can’t do it or is there really a power drop. I would appreciate your views.
 
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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
Aaaaagh, it's happening again.

There was a huge contraversial thread on this which I think disappeared when the board went FUBAR. To cut a long story short, a lot of responses were pro this mod, more power and no adverse effects. BUT...there was some other very strong posts to the contrary.

I hope this thread doesn't go the same way. It will be pistols at dawn again
 
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Try a search for the previous thread , there were over 50 replies!!
To briefly repeat my views , my VI has the PE remap , it works , pure and simple http://www.ltregister.f9.co.uk/graphics/happy1.gif border|EQU| 0 align|EQU| absmiddle >
No probs at all with 95 UL , just use SUL on trackdays.
A PE modded VI thrashed all kinds of SUPER CARS at the Brighton sprint last year , he was a happy man.
 
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
We will see http://www.ltregister.f9.co.uk/graphics/wink1.gif border|EQU| 0 align|EQU| absmiddle >

Kevin A
 
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I have had no dealings with P.E. so I can't comment really. However I can give you my views on the matter.

Personally I think you should just stick with 97RON, its a known quantity in Evo engines where as 95RON isn't.
Why spend out over a grand on a modification that may have a chance, even a tiny one of damaging your engine. Fair enough some add ons may let you use 95RON or increase fuel economy or even increase performance but all at once? I would be extremely doubtful over this or what its compromising in your engine management to achieve it.
If you want to save fuel then I suggest you go down the fuel controller route. If you want performance then go down other tried and tested routes.

Lets assume the PE mod has proved itself and there are no problems. Lets just have a look at the economics of it by comparing what you might save with the PE mod with 95RON unleaded and by what it would cost if you did nothing and stuck with 97RON unleaded. (Its a rough calculation so don't pull it to bits)


Lets assume the following:

Non Modified E6
97RON unleaded at 83.5p/litre.
Fuel consumption of 24mpg average.

P.E. Modified E6
95RON unleaded at 79.9p/litre.
Lets say you get a fuel economy improvement like they suggest, lets say realistically 28mpg average, a 15% improvement.


Now for the maths bit:

Non modified car
83.5 x 4.55 |EQU| 380p/gallon
380/24 |EQU| 15.8p/mile

PE modified car
79.9 x 4.55 |EQU| 364p/gallon
364/28 |EQU| 13.0p/mile

Difference between both:

15.8-13.0 |EQU| 2.8p/mile

PE mod is roughly £1000 so:

1000/0.028 |EQU| 35,714 miles


If my maths is correct then you would have to cover nearly 36,000 miles before the PE mod paid for itself. Is it worth it?

I am thinking of going down the Ecotec valve route. For £50-£60 you get roughly 28mpg (still 97RON though). Its a simple device, its tried and tested worldwide and unlike the P.E. mod. I can see how it works. The only reason I am considering doing this is to get a bit more range out of tank as I don't like filling up every couple of days.

I simply can't believe the logic of people who buy extremely high performance cars and then want to save a little bit of money on lower grade fuel. It seems a bit of reverse logic to me. Do Porsches and Ferraris run on 95RON? Surely if you want better performance then a higher RON fuel is part of that package? If you live in an area with little or no SUL supply then I can completely understand people wanting to try the PE route or Octane Boosters but for other people who have regular access to SUL I wouldn't even consider it.

Obviously this is just my opinion and as you can see on the posts above there are people who are perfectly happy with the P.E. mod. It just seems to me to be too good to be true. I am very sceptical by nature over such modifications (superchips and amp; remaps etc.) not so much by the claimed improvements but what corners they may be cutting to achieve the improvements and what damage may result from those cut corners. I also posted this as there were quite a few people on the previous PE thread that were unhappy with the work PE carried out and I am trying to add a voice for them.

The moral of the story from my point of view is 'If it ain't broke don't fix it' but if you do be very careful.

Cheers
 
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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Heave Ho,
Sorry to p*ss on your chips but I wouldn't expect 28mpg out of an E6 with the Ecotek on. http://www.ltregister.f9.co.uk/graphics/laugh1.gif border|EQU| 0 align|EQU| absmiddle >

I've had one fitted for more than a month and haven't noticed anything to shout about yet.
Never got more than 22mpg. either before or after Ecotek fitted.

Never got over 180 miles on a full tank, the best I ever got was when the car was being run in and got 195.

If you really get over 200 miles an a tank you must be driving it like a grandma. [img]http://www.ltregister.f9.co.uk/graphics/tonguewink1.gif border|EQU| 0 align|EQU| absmiddle >

Whats the point ! What a waste ! Drive it like it was designed to be driven. [img]http://www.ltregister.f9.co.uk/graphics/biggrin1.gif border|EQU| 0 align|EQU| absmiddle >

Bring it on ! [img]http://www.ltregister.f9.co.uk/graphics/tonguewink1.gif border|EQU| 0 align|EQU| absmiddle >
 
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
From the original poster - Zippy

I am new to the forum and although I though I looked back through most threads, I haven’t found the previous thread you mentioned. I will look again.

Many thanks for all of your views and especially for the time that you have spent to answer my query.

I only previously left a brief not and did not explain my intentions fully.

I am looking to go down the re-mapping route, hoping to achieve more power and flexibility. If any increase in fuel consumption and lower fuel costs were achieved; this would be an added bonus. I don’t think I drive mine hard, but only average 140 miles to a tank; which by my reckoning is closer to 16mpg.

I have received contradictory comments on running a re-mapped car on 95 and 97RON fuel from the various tuners who I have spoken to, who include, Interpro; Power Engineering; D P Motors; M A Developments and PowerStation.

A note for Heave Ho Six. Special thanks for your views and I note what you say. I am fortunate enough for my other car to be a Ferrari and after filling it up with 97RON for a year, discovered that it only requires 95RON!
 
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
i wouldnt put 95 ron in my lawnmower !
and no ,its not electric
i agree with the man,buy a metro diesel,or stop moaning
im sick of people asking me what my evo does to the gallon
my answer nowadays is,no idea,dont fu..ing care peasant !again i susspect you got the car for all the wrong reasons !!
 
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Hello!

I've had it done to my car, but the point is not to save petrol, but to increase power!
The 95RON is only a side-effect of the remapping of the ECU to increase the power. Your definitely not going to save any petrol. And as far as people going on about what octane to put in your Evo, what's the problem? The car has a very sophisticated anti-knock sensor, so there is no problem to run it on 95 in everyday use. The engine management will take care of it (after the PE mod).

Read this http://www.webpak.net/~marriott/gasoline.htm
especially 6.16, 6.17, etc.

To cut a long story short, with anti-knock and if using low-grade petrol, the car loses power and uses more petrol, but it does _not_ damage the engine.

Michael
 
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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Sorry, but I have to add something. The main reason for the high octane ratings in Japan is the climate: As high temperature and humidity raise the knocking of engines you would expect them to have higher octane ratings. In Japan the Evo (and any other highly tuned car) is expected to perform (and not blow up) in conditions like 38C and 110% humidity. How likely are these conditions in Europe and especially in the UK?

Sorry about me raving on about this subject, but it affects me deeply (I sometimes dream about it http://www.ltregister.f9.co.uk/graphics/Wilk.gif border|EQU| 0 align|EQU| middle >).

Michael
 
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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
The main appeal of the PE remap mod was to obtain more performance , the added benefit of being able to SAFELY run on 95 UL was icing on my evo cake. I couldn't give an arse about the cost of SUL , the pain was locating it when I NEEDED it. Something further for u SUL junkies to consider , do u realise how variable the quality of the stuff is , and did u know that some forecourt retailers are not averse to dispensing 95 UL when they run out of SUL without telling U !! And before u start ranting that this is not possible , I know this from a friend who works in the petrol industry , it is fact. So if yr car is mapped to run on SUL and u get a tank or 3 of 95.......
Some further advantages of the PE way is the facility to remap for future mods , ie upgraded turbo , new cams etc , ok , u have to pay for the remap but u know that your motor is giving it's best after yr mods and u get a power and torque graph to prove ithttp://www.ltregister.f9.co.uk/graphics/happy1.gif border|EQU| 0 align|EQU| absmiddle >
Using fuel and boost controllers is a short cut method , easy money for the bolt on bit tuners. They work by interupting data to the ECU and changing it to obtain increased boost and fuel , thats as good as remapping....not!!
Not exactly cost effective either , check it and see , the better examples are circa £350 each plus other items like boost solenoid controllers , plus installation and yr dashboard will look like Oxford street at Christmas....hmmmm

Ecotek , **** me , u have to be joking!!!

PE have a problem with their own achievment, they are the only company that has accessed the factory VI ECU , so other companies if so inclined have distribute worrying rumours to discredit that product in order to protect their market , standard stuff in business guys.....for the losers.
Well my VI is quite happy knocking out 330 BHP on 95 RON UL , I was present at the rolling road test , there was no detonation , the exhaust gas temp was fine , this at an ambient temp of 28 C,and it uses less fuel. Some further mods to increase power even higher are scheduled , I'll keep u posted.
 
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
To all you guys that are happy with 95ron,HAVE you driven your car hard whilst listening to the engine with the correct detonation listening equipment ? If you had then you would not be so happy.
I look forward to seeing a PE re-map at a rolling road day where we can see back to back figures with the other cars, not just done on there own at PE. I am not knocking PE but do think we should see them all together.

Rgds Kevin A
 
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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
If the pe remap is so good, why dont ralliart uk have it on all uk cars or say mitsubishi have a different uk spec ecu if the standard one isnt upto scratch.
 
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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Don't know , ask em yrself.
Straight logic doesn't apply in this market, maybe they didn't like the fact that PE had sorted ithttp://www.ltregister.f9.co.uk/graphics/wink1.gif border|EQU| 0 align|EQU| absmiddle >
I didn't say the factory ECU wasn't upto scratch , my car still has one !! The point is that it is not mapped for 95 UL and can sorted for more power , don't forget ,these cars are very overfuelled and loads of owners have resolved that with various gadgets , so why not go a stage further and remap the factory ECU.
 
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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Peely,
Thanks for the info on your Ecotek valve, I was quoting the 28mpg from Jon who has had one fitted to his E4 for quite a while now. I don't think I will bother with one now anyway. I hope you weren't accusing me of driving like a grandma http://www.ltregister.f9.co.uk/graphics/wink1.gif border|EQU| 0 align|EQU| absmiddle > as no one I know has ever said that of me [img]http://www.ltregister.f9.co.uk/graphics/biggrin1.gif border|EQU| 0 align|EQU| absmiddle > (Damn 26mpg on the last fill up! Motorway miles though so let me off please [img]http://www.ltregister.f9.co.uk/graphics/wink1.gif border|EQU| 0 align|EQU| absmiddle >)

Zippy,
Yeah I remembered Ferraris run on 95RON after I posted....doh!

Oh well I consider this can of worms officially reopenned! [img]http://www.ltregister.f9.co.uk/graphics/biggrin1.gif border|EQU| 0 align|EQU| absmiddle >
 
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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Evoboy/Michael......from reading your threads I assume the PE remap uses a piggy pack board with the standard ECU. If this is the case and just out of curiosity seeing you have had it done, do you know what elements of fuelling, timing, boost etc are remapped and what elements are still left to the standard ECU. Also is all mapping work done on the rolling road, or is some done on the open road?

Evoboy.....you mentioned about petrol quality. It is only reasonable to assume if 97 Ron is sometimes not 97 Ron, then 95 Ron could also sometimes not be 95 Ron . 93 Ron perhaps.

Michael........ You said quote: To cut a long story short, with anti-knock and if using low-grade petrol, the car loses power and uses more petrol, but it does _not_ damage the engine .

There are many things in life that are certain death birth etc. To be certain that a low fuel grade will not damage an engine I am afraid isn't one of them.

Having said that I don't believe that the EVO engine by design is particularly knock sensitive (having run a knocklink on 95/97 and 97 plus octane booster), unlike the Sti imprezas where the problem is widely recognised even running our 97 Ron fuel. That might be because the engine timing advance is only about 5 degrees across the rev range, where an impreza is two or three times that amount. That's just a guess by the way knock sensitivity that is.

I don't doubt that a 95 Ron remap is wholly achievable with a programmable ECU and with increased power and torque. What I fail to understand is why anybody would want to spend £1,000 on a remap and immediately limit the potential performance by going for a 95 Ron remap. Are we all really that obsessed with the price of petrol, and don't tell me that the non availability of 97 Ron is a real issue either when octane booster is widely available via mail order.

It is a clever bit of marketing on PE's part if you ask me preying on this obsession, and it seems most think that paying 5p per litre extra for SUL is like the difference in buying a fake Rolex and the real thing.

Steve
 
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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Shud u wish to run on 97 or higher oct race fuel or all 3 (inc 95) a switch can be installed to change maps to suit the fuel in use , actually mine is so clever it can run on kerosene and produce 1200 BHP on 5.5 bar boost and give 40 |PLS| MPG , but I don't like the smell of the stuff http://www.ltregister.f9.co.uk/graphics/happy1.gif border|EQU| 0 align|EQU| absmiddle > [img]http://www.ltregister.f9.co.uk/graphics/happy1.gif border|EQU| 0 align|EQU| absmiddle > [img]http://www.ltregister.f9.co.uk/graphics/happy1.gif border|EQU| 0 align|EQU| absmiddle >
Yup , 95 UL can also vary , although because of the hugely increased volume dispensed the quality is more stable (reliable source)
The PE remap was the result of around 18 months of research and development , and they have a VI as a test vehicle so mapping work was carried out over a full range of conditions , and I keep saying this , IT WORKS , believe me if it didn't my Mr Angry hat wud be straight out it's box [img]http://www.ltregister.f9.co.uk/graphics/happy1.gif border|EQU| 0 align|EQU| absmiddle >
With the mileage my VI does fuel cost's are not an issue , the availability of SUL is a big issue , as for playing Merlin with additives u can $% and amp;((%£ $^ that!!
By the way , lots of people buy single map ECU upgrades for Evo's and other motors at £750 a pop so £1000 for a remappable ECU sounds like a good buy to me[img]http://www.ltregister.f9.co.uk/graphics/happy1.gif border|EQU| 0 align|EQU| absmiddle >
 
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