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There have been alot of threads about turbos and turbo kits and what is available. I have tried quite a few, so hereis a quick post about my turbo history.


1) EVO 6 RS turbo with titanium shaft.

The standard EVO turbo was excellent. Fast spooling and capable of excellent torque and good power. The larger exhaust housing seems best of all with handling heat build up, and running the turbo at 1.8 bar mid range and 1.6 bar at the top end will give good torque/power (say 380bhp and 370lb/ft) with good engine and turbo life. These turbos will never produce 400bhp, it is beyond their flow rating. The modified versions the Dentist developed will give you 400bhp and slightly quicker spool up.
The roller bearing version of these are even better with fantastic spool up. These are very expensive now, with Mitsi doubling the price of them recently.

2)Trust/Greddy TD06-20g 8cm2 exhaust housing full turbine kit.
This really isn't a bad turbo at all. It is cost effective, and pretty good for a road car. I would not recommend them for a track car as the manifold does crack under extreme heat, as it is a pretty thin design. Easily rewelded, but a pain none the less.

The turbo itself is around 25% larger on the compressor side, but actually slightly smaller on the exhaust housing side to keep good spool up. Full boost by 4000rpm is possible, with up to 450bhp on an 2l EVO. Torque figues are slightly down on the standard turbo because of the slower spool, but almost 400lb/ft is possible.

These turbos will not last if you run them over 1.8 bar max, and seem at their most efficient at the top end around 1.6 bar.

Run at 1.4 bar you will get around 400bhp and 350lb/ft with standard internals.

It is imperative that the oil supply is taken from the block, not the head (which is the standard evo oil supply location).

If the turbo dies, Essex turbos can covert it to a roller bearing unit with a T04 compressor wheel of your choosing.


3) Trust/Greddy T67-25g 8cm2

This is exactly the same kit as the Td06-20g except for the turbo which is larger. The exhaust housing is the same as the 20g, but with a MUCH larger compressor. This is a very agricultural turbo, as the 20g is, with a normal 360 degree thrust bearing. Oil supply is ULTRA important for this turbo for long life

The standard bearing cannot cope with more than 1.6 bar, yet pervesely the turbo does not really come alive until 1.6 bar! Essex turbos do a conversion for £300 to uprate the bearing to sustain 2 bar or higher.

VERY high power is possible from this turbo. On a 2 litre, around 500bhp is possible, though at quite high rpm. Around 400lb/ft of torque is possible, but spool up is quite awful. Full boost near 5000rpm is the expectation. Works much better on a stroker.

The 10cm2 exhaust housing is capable of alot more power (up to 600bhp on a stroked car at over 2 bar).

This turbo really needs a larger capacity engine to get the spool up faster to achieve good torque figures.

Difficult to repair this turbo in this country, but Essex have repaired them a few times before. It cannot be converted to roller bearing.

Because the compressor is so large on these units, they are very prone to surging if you attempt to spool too quickly.

4)TD06-20g modified by Essex with roller bearing and T04 comp wheel.

When my 20g died I had essex rebuild it using Garret and IHI parts. The result was pretty good. The turbo ended up midway between the original 20g and a 3037s in performance. Costly though, almost as much as a new GT30!

5)HKS 3037s 0.87 A/R full kit

This is the nicest turbo kit BY FAR. The manifold is beautifully made, and very strong -unlikely to crack. It is not really a kit, like the Greddy stuff, and you will have to make up front pipes and intercooler pipes for it. It is also much more expensive than the Greddy kits.

The HKS3037s is not a standard Garret part. The housings are HKS specific, but the bearing units, compressor and turbine wheels are all standard Garret parts. It is also a GT25/GT30 hybrid. Garret do now sell a GT30/GT25 hybrid, but it has a smaller inlet and compressor A/R, and doesn't feature the housing modifications that HKS provide.

The HKS turbos are MASSIVELY more expensive at nearly twice the price. If you want something that performs similarly for less money, talk to the DENTIST.

This turbo is capable of 520hp with standard fuel and nearly 600hp with race fuel. It is similar in capability to the 25g above, but with spool up closer to the 20g thanks to the roller bearing unit. It does not suffer from surge (although the GT30 equivalent definitely does). The external wastegate version seems better at part-throttle boost control than the internal wastegate version.

There are other A/R sizes on the turbine available, the smallest would give spool up by around 4000rpm and still deliver over 450bhp at high boost.

This turbo was able to sustain 2 bar all the way to 7600rpm without overspeeding or high intake temps. Thanks to fast spool up, high torque is possible. On my 8.9:1 engine it achieved 450lbft with normal superunleaded.

But, every cloud has a silver lining. It broke after only 15 hours use. The reason for this was that HKS add an oil restrictor on the oil banjo union of only 1mm. This became blocked due to carbon build up. The garret bearing core is self regulating anyway, and many tuners drill out the banjo. Why HKS fit this is beyond me or anyone else. The shaft broke, and the only thing left of the turbo was the exhaust housing!

As a result of that, I had to buy a whole new 3037s. There is no warranty as such, but HKS did seem guilty and offered me a new one at 2/3rds cost, which was good (I think Rob at Sumopower twisted their arm ALOT though - thanks Rob).

I will be drilling the restrictor OUT this time.

As for repairing it - well, that (as with the Greddy units) means back to Japan!. If the compressor cover had not been damaged, it would have been easy enough to rebuild here with garret parts - but the comp cover is HKS only, and they won't supply it.

I could have built an equivalent, but it was nearly as expensive as the reduced cost HKS turbo, so I saw no point.

OTHER TURBOS I HAVE HAD INDIRECT EXPERIENCE OF:

6) HKS 3240

Same kit as the 3037s, but using a larger turbo, which is a GT35/GT25 hybrid. The version I sampled was modified significantly by Simon Norris. It was superb, on a stroker, with great spool up and enormous power - 700bhp+. The spool up felt similar to the 3037s.


7) HKS 2835

Very good turbo, when used with a smallish A/R. Will give lighting spool up and 420hp. The higher power version produces 450hp, but has such a large turbine A/R that I think a smaller turbined 3037s would be a better choice, with longer life.


Hope this info helps you out
 

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Nice one Tony, some good reading there! :)

What are your opinions on the HKS 2835 vs the Garret GT25?

Ambitions are good power with little lag as possible...
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
2835 and GT25 will give similair results.


I would say 420 to 430 is the sensible limit for one of these, otherwise you need to go GT30/3037 series.
 

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Tony

I think you need to take another look at what the problem was,From what I see the turbo and HKS oil pipe was on for 15 hours there is no way carbon will build up in that time,Mountune would have had a oil cooler on the dyno oil temp would have been correct at all times,I cannot see where the carbon would have come from.

Mark
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Mark, that was definitely the cause of the problem.

As Simon said to me, if it was anyone other than Mountune, he would have questioned whether there was crap etc in the oilways from when they machined the block.

Simon changed the oil before the final mapping. We are drilling out the restrictor this time, as it is just too easy for it to get blocked.

I have basically handed the problem over to Simon to solve, along with a new turbo. He will only run the engine when he is happy with everything, so I have to go with that.
 

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Hello

Tony has anyone come up with a explanaiton or reason as to how carbon has managed to form in a engine/turbo that has only run for 15hours under controlled condtions.Have you had the oil tested to see if there is any problems with it.


Mark
 

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Blade said:
3) Trust/Greddy T67-25g 8cm2

This is exactly the same kit as the Td06-20g except for the turbo which is larger.
Errrr.... ok! :D :lol:

(at least someone actually READ this! LOL)
 

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Blade said:
There have been alot of threads about turbos and turbo kits and what is available. I have tried quite a few, so hereis a quick post about my turbo history.

1) EVO 6 RS turbo with titanium shaft.

The standard EVO turbo was excellent. Fast spooling and capable of excellent torque and good power. The larger exhaust housing seems best of all with handling heat build up, and running the turbo at 1.8 bar mid range and 1.6 bar at the top end will give good torque/power (say 380bhp and 370lb/ft) with good engine and turbo life. These turbos will never produce 400bhp, it is beyond their flow rating. The modified versions the Dentist developed will give you 400bhp and slightly quicker spool up.
The roller bearing version of these are even better with fantastic spool up. These are very expensive now, with Mitsi doubling the price of them recently.

the turbos both sam and i developed are all GT GARRETT ball bearing NOT roller . also we did not produce a upgraded standard turbo !! all are turbo developments were done using only TITANIUM SHAFTS and GT BALL BEARING SYSTEMS . also RICH W did 425hp @ 1.5 bar ,i did 401 ftlb @1.9 bar peak.
 

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just to add to tony's comments, there is no such a thing as a perfect turbo.


the hks/garret units are all hybrides. for example

the hks 3037s that tony has comes with 48mm, 52 and 56 compressor trim. Obviously less power and less lag the smaller the number.

also they come with 0.64,0.73. 0.87. 1.01 and 1.12ar turbine sides, :eek: that changes the flow and characteristics of the turbos dramatically.

the HKS GT 2835 is actually an gt25. However the only difference is the hks unit comes with 0.50 a/r compressor side compared to the standard garret gt25 0.70 a/r compressor cover. So on paper the gt2835 is slightly smaller however in real life the power difference between the two will be very small.

the only thing that hks has got total exclusivity over is the turbine housing as this is cast by garret especially for hks and no one else can get them. The rest of the turbo is just standard garret parts.


The reason the hks turbos work well is the issue of surge which tony has mentioned, this is a very important issue for any big turbo really. If you have a mis match in between the size of the compressor to the size of the turbine wheel you end up with surge. The reason you always end up with a mis-match is the fact if you don’t you end up with turbos that are too laggy.

There is few types of surge :

If your engine is not producing enough exhaust gases at low revs/low boost scenario as in cruising, you end up with compressor stall or surge, can be found in some of the greddy turbos on high gears.

If you try to pull the boost too fast with a large compressor you can end up spinning the compressor faster than it is designed to, as in hit what is called surge line, this also cause surge. Basically you are trying to suck that much air from in front of the inlet you get some cavitations of the air column leading to no air and hence surge/ compressor stall. This is especially when you have a small turbine side and a large compressor side as in the greddy turbos. The compressor side of these turbos is just huge. So you have to bring the boost in gently with them. Hence loosing a torque but these turbos will be great for drag or top bhp figures.


Another situation when you may get surge if you try to ask the turbo for too much boost and you end up over speeding it. You get into a situation with the compressor over speeds then slows down and then over speeds etc, you get it in the form of boost fluctuations.

There is ways to get rid of the surge in all the scenarios that I have encountered but you always end up loosing in other areas.

So to answer some of the questions that have been asked again and again and again over this board, NO YOU CAN’T GET A TURBO WITH SIMILAR LAG TO STANDARD AND GET OVER 450BHP. Physically impossible. The gt25 will give you the nearst to a standard spool up and around 440-450 at a bush. The next step up will be a lot laggier.


So if I would rate these turbos in terms of power and lag

1. BB standard turbo: fastest spooling turbo
2. standard turbo
3. hybrid dentist/evo400 BB unit, similar or better spool up than standard but more power ( no far off a gt25 small trim
4. gt25 0.64 ar
5. gt25 0.86 ar
6. hks 2835 similar power and spool up to the above
7. greddy 20g similar spool up and power to the above
8. hks 3037s anything really from 450-520 however they will always be worst spooling up than any of the above.
9. greddy 8cm housing
10. hks 3040 ( old technology ) you get them cheap now, would not recommend them, they will be prone to surge.
11. hks 3240 better spooling up than the greddy and more power
12. greddy 25g 10cm similar spool up as the hks 3240 however gives less power.
13. hks t51 kai rated at a whopping 800bhp
14. hks T51 spl rated at an even bigger whopping 1000 bhp.


i am sure there is a lot i have missed but this is a subject you can read a whole book about.


sam
 

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EVO VI GSR Ti Turbo

Hi! I am in the process of installing a TME EVO VII GSR turbo on my stock USDM Evo VIII. You guys have any comments and recommendations about this project I have? Any power gains and losses (if any) that I should be aware of?

Thanks guys!
 

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evo-7 said:


So if I would rate these turbos in terms of power and lag

1. BB standard turbo: fastest spooling turbo
2. standard turbo
3. hybrid dentist/evo400 BB unit, similar or better spool up than standard but more power ( no far off a gt25 small trim
4. gt25 0.64 ar
5. gt25 0.86 ar
6. hks 2835 similar power and spool up to the above
7. greddy 20g similar spool up and power to the above
8. hks 3037s anything really from 450-520 however they will always be worst spooling up than any of the above.
9. greddy 8cm housing
10. hks 3040 ( old technology ) you get them cheap now, would not recommend them, they will be prone to surge.
11. hks 3240 better spooling up than the greddy and more power
12. greddy 25g 10cm similar spool up as the hks 3240 however gives less power.
13. hks t51 kai rated at a whopping 800bhp
14. hks T51 spl rated at an even bigger whopping 1000 bhp.

Great thread.

What about the next Garrett up from GT25? Is that GT30? GT32? How would that be compared to the others?
 

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Cheers.. Blade, Sam
very good reading, certainly has answered a few questions for me
:thumbup:
 

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Re: EVO VI GSR Ti Turbo

BadBoyBeltran said:
Hi! I am in the process of installing a TME EVO VII GSR turbo on my stock USDM Evo VIII. You guys have any comments and recommendations about this project I have? Any power gains and losses (if any) that I should be aware of?

Thanks guys!
there is no such a thing really. they did not make TME EVO7. if you need to improve what you have you need to get a TD05 16G 10.5T. this is an evo 6 turbo. you get this in two flavours, titanium and inconnel. the titanium is lighter and hence spools up quicker.

the compressor side has not changed between the evo6,7 and 8. it is the turbine side. the evo 7 and 8 have got the smaller 9.8t exhuast housing, now this is good for spool up but bad for bhp.

so your best bet to improve the power on the 8 a little is just to get a 10.5t exhuast housing from an evo6 turbo. or just an evo 6 turbo.

i have done this on my 7 and gained something like 10bhp at the top end. now couple that with a ball bearing turbo and coupple of other mods and you end up with something really special.

i have not mentioned the gt30 etc, because they are not proven yet. it is not that easy to fit them on an evo really. i am working on a kit to fit a gt30 internal wastegate turbo on the evo but it is not finished yet. but this should give power higher than the gt25 and probably compareble to the 3037s pro ( which comes with an actuator instead of an external wastegate). the wheel on the gt30 is the same as the wheel in the 3037 so the flow should be similar however it is external wastegate will always give a slightly more power at the top end.

a good thing to keep in mind is the garret unit and the HKS units are vrey similar in spec. so they almost identical. saying that there is not any proven manifold and elbow combination that will actually allow you to bolt a garret unit. unless you get a hks manifold and change the flanges. ! so defeats the propose of the exercise.

i hope this makes sense
 

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Re: Re: EVO VI GSR Ti Turbo

evo-7 said:

i have not mentioned the gt30 etc, because they are not proven yet. it is not that easy to fit them on an evo really. i am working on a kit to fit a gt30 internal wastegate turbo on the evo but it is not finished yet. but this should give power higher than the gt25 and probably compareble to the 3037s pro ( which comes with an actuator instead of an external wastegate). the wheel on the gt30 is the same as the wheel in the 3037 so the flow should be similar however it is external wastegate will always give a slightly more power at the top end.

a good thing to keep in mind is the garret unit and the HKS units are vrey similar in spec. so they almost identical. saying that there is not any proven manifold and elbow combination that will actually allow you to bolt a garret unit. unless you get a hks manifold and change the flanges. ! so defeats the propose of the exercise.
Ok. Why not go with an external wastegate for GT30?

I am planning (dreaming :)) a project where I was thinking of using a GT30 and have someone who can weld to make me a manifold and an elbow, maybe it is harder than I thought?
 

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Re: Re: Re: EVO VI GSR Ti Turbo

andber said:
Ok. Why not go with an external wastegate for GT30?

I am planning (dreaming :)) a project where I was thinking of using a GT30 and have someone who can weld to make me a manifold and an elbow, maybe it is harder than I thought?
i will buy one off you when you are done. how about a dead line, shall we say 2010 ;) :D it is a lot harder than you think !!

sam
 

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Or maybe by the end of 2003 ;) :D

Manifold is proving a small issue - but should be resolved over the next couple of weeks :)
 

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off course there is always the option of getting a dsm turbo pointing towards the driver side and then move things about.

there is quite few manifolds already that will take a gt or t3 t4 trubos but they all point the driver side.


alot of bits may need to be moved around.
 
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