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Guys,
Had the misfortune of having to use a courtesy car for a week & a bit. It was an FIAT Bravo (or Brava can't remember which as it was that boring).

The handling was naff & so was the acceleration, but the breaks were good.

Imagine my shock when I got my EVO back & found that the breaking is worse on my EVO that it was on the FIAT!

I have the standard Calipers (which I want to keep) & there are EBC Red stuff pads on it at the mo.

Please let me have your opinions on:

1) Which disks to replace the standard ones with (do I need to do the backs too (or mainly just the fronts)?
2) Also whether I need to replace the Red stuff pads (still loads of wear on these)
3) Will the choices that you guys mention make a marked improvement in the breaking over standard without resorting to some 6 pot calipers?

As always, thanks loads for your time & replies :)

PHK.
 

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Imagine my shock when I got my EVO back & found that the breaking is worse on my EVO that it was on the FIAT!


know what you meen i'v had three evos none of them can stop for sh*t
threads say do this change that but at the end of the day the standard set up should be bloody good which i have found are crap
my everyday car bora TDI fells like it will out brake my evo
my evo IV RS no ABS = poor
my evo V urated disks and pads = poor
my evo VI standard = poor
if somone knows why please tell me :confused:
 

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It's probably that, like most "normal" cars, the Fiat was just over assisted. The EVO will have more bite, but you need to do more with the pedal. This gives you a better braking range rather than just "on" and "off".
 

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The brakes in my van are better than the evos. Quite a shock when you drive different motors all the time.
Feels like I'm sitting on the floor in the evo, after the van all week.
Brakes are just awful :D ;)
 

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The only time I didn't like the brakes in my 6 was when I put EBC pads in. The oem were fine as far as stopping went, they were just a tad expensive.

Buy some OEM pads or get some Ferodo DS2000 or DS2500 and see if you still don't think you can stop. I guarantee you it will make a difference ;)
 

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I've fitted the 2-piece discs and pads from Performance Friction, problems completely cured and the best brakes I've ever tried. They're cheaper than AP and look the dogs!!

The reason Original Euipment is so crap is because it is cheap product...to the manufacturer but not to you! The one piece will always give judder, it's inherent in the design. Therefore you need a two-piece disc to truly solve the problem, just look at the rally cars! Soem pads like Ferodo and EBC can't handle high temperatures, which is another reason for poor brakes. You need something with a higher temperature rating like carbon metallic's, which provide the best stopping power and unlike a few years ago don't seem to wear the discs or lack cold performance.

I got my complete front package for a little over £500 from Performance Friction in Northamptonshire, very knowledgeable people on the phone...which is why I know so much!! No. 01280 843390.
 

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Mitsie said:
I've fitted the 2-piece discs and pads from Performance Friction, problems completely cured and the best brakes I've ever tried. They're cheaper than AP and look the dogs!!

The reason Original Euipment is so crap is because it is cheap product...to the manufacturer but not to you! The one piece will always give judder, it's inherent in the design. Therefore you need a two-piece disc to truly solve the problem, just look at the rally cars! Soem pads like Ferodo and EBC can't handle high temperatures, which is another reason for poor brakes. You need something with a higher temperature rating like carbon metallic's, which provide the best stopping power and unlike a few years ago don't seem to wear the discs or lack cold performance.

I got my complete front package for a little over £500 from Performance Friction in Northamptonshire, very knowledgeable people on the phone...which is why I know so much!! No. 01280 843390.
As long as they have a good bite from cold they sound good for a road pad. I'm intrigued that you think Ferodo can't handle high temperatures, they sell the DS2000 as a road and track compound, and the DS3000 as a race only compound which will work up to 750C according to their literature. Since 5.1 brake fluid will be boiling at <300C (generally 260-280C) you don't want to keep your brakes much hotter than that on a road car for any real length of time unless you run water cooled calipers. :cool:
 

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you're absolutely right about not wanting the brake fluid to boil, which is why a performance fluid is always recommended when fitting performance pads. However, take care with the 5.1 synthetic fluids, it can damage seals. Castrol SRF I've found to be the best although needs repalcing on a more frequent basis.

The actual disc temperature (you can buy temp paints to go on disc that tells you max temp reached) can actually reach <750 degreesC on a standard disc with performance pads at a track day with a novice driver (coz novices typically spend longer than needed on brakes). Therefore the actual pad is reaching a higher temp, so it's small wonder there's so much issues with brakes on the Evo...the rest of the car is kick ass but the designers neglected the need for good brakes! The heat is dissipated by convection and radiation from the disc rather than conduction into the caliper, which is why the caliper is not the same temp. However, if the pads are worn and don't have a good back plate with temperature resistant paint, the caliper will start to conduct the heat..bad news!

When I say the Ferodo pad can't handle high temperatures, what I mean is that it can be prone to fade and generally the Ferodo pad will deposit material on the disc face when it is hot, which coz of the standard disc warping means an uneven transfer layer, hence even worse judder! That's why the carbon metallic pads are used in racing coz they keep the disc face nice and clean and can take higher temperatures, so no fade or judder. Now that the newer compounds work well from cold, I've found they work fantastic for road or track.
 

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I was under the impression that 99% of "performance" pads used abrasive friction when cold, changing to shearing and remaking of chemical bonds between the transfer layer and main pad bulk as the temperature rose. This being the case then any high-temp pad will deposit material on the rotor face when hot because that is how the pads are designed to work ;)

That and the specs for every 5.1 fluid show a boiling point below 300C, so even though you can reach up to 1100C at the pad / rotor interface, it's not recommended to do it frequently or for any length of time otherwise the heat will eventually get to the fluid and boil it. This is obviously regardless of the actual pads in use, unless you have extra cooling for the calipers you don't want to keep your brakes too hot. Racing applications generally use water cooling for this reason, although it is generally too unwieldy and expensive for a road car to take this route.

Anyway, as long as you're happy with the Performance Friction pads that's the main thing. I'm currently happy with the Ferodo DS2500s, but then I'm using them on the road so they won't see the same temp ranges that a race pad would (bite from cold is good and I'm not managing to get them or the fluid hot enough to fade either).
 

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You seem to know your stuff...or by refering to the disc as a rotor you have merely downloaded an article from the american Stoptech website!

Water cooled calipers are only used in rallying, as they are not permitted in other championships. On the basis Formula 1 and many series use carbon (which reaches much higher temps than steel) and they are not permitted to use water cooling, the temp of the caliper is really not the issue.

You seem happy with your Ferodo, but I bet if you tried the Performance Friction you'd have a different view! ;)
 

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Nah, "bell" and "rotor" have been used enough times on the forums that I've picked a bit up. Plus I'm running AP 6 pots with 2 piece discs so the terminology actually means something to me now as well ;)

May try the PF pads next, although it will be tempting to stick with DS2500 until I've killed the discs (not sure how easy it is to clean a transfer layer off when running different compound pads, so maybe I'll wait until the discs go).
 

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Absolutely!! EBC have done a fantastic marketing job and the fact that they contain kevlar sounds really great...unless you know that kevlar doesn't actually like heat! It's the same with six pot calipers...just a fashion! Stick with Brembo 4 pots (which are actually the best part of the brake system) and fit a quality 2-piece disc and performance pads then go n spank that car like it deserves!
 

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Mitsie said:

I got my complete front package for a little over £500 from Performance Friction in Northamptonshire, very knowledgeable people on the phone...which is why I know so much!! No. 01280 843390.
Mitsie said:

It's the same with six pot calipers...just a fashion! Stick with Brembo 4 pots (which are actually the best part of the brake system) and fit a quality 2-piece disc and performance pads then go n spank that car like it deserves!
Do you have some interest in Performance Friction ? you do seem very keen on them, and you know far more than a 'phone calls' worth of information on brake preformance

and the thing that got me to post in this tread !
"six pot calipers...just a fashion!" yes for anyone that needs to improve braking performance. that wether it by AP or Stoptech etc.

I have been fortunate to have tryed lots of brake set ups on my evo, some good and some rubbish, a floating disc will generaly out perform a fixed 2 piece disc.

I have however not yet met anyone before who claims the standard brake caliper is as good as a 6 pot kit, for overall performance, including the elimination of judder.

Maybe you should have a drive in a car fitted whith a 6 pot upgrade, even just on the road with the DS2500 pads the difference is huge.

just so everyone knows I am involved with AP Racing so don't claim to be impartial.
 
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