[GINGA]

What would be the max hp that a std e7/8 engine could take?
eg if I got a 3071/3037s atp turbo kit from the states and fitted it to a std engine obviously with the ecu,fuel pump, injectors etc upgraded to suit and ran it at 1.4-1.6bar could I run at approx 400hp safely(ish)?

 

[Fish Monkey]

Not for long I would say. To run such a turbo properly you need forged internals. Whilst some people have gotten away with near 400bhp on standard internals it's always been with the standard size turbo (and even then there have been failures). Power delivery will be more brutal with the bigger turbo hence the expected melt down.

 

[evo400]

fish monkey there are several stock engines running well over 400hp and have been for several years now . a bigger turbo if anything will provide a far better even power delivery along with lower inlet temps due to less work being done . therefore the twoddle you have just written is some what floored .

cars go bang/melt down for a reason usually because of bad mapping . i would say a well set up turbo system would make a nice 450hp on stock internals with out much fuss so long as you have a well set up ecu motec/ pectel/autronics system mapped by some one who knows his business. ecu now a days have so many saftey systems that it is hard to blow or melt engines unless there is a failure else where ie fuel pump .

dave

 

[GINGA]

Thats exactly what I wanted to hear :coolsm:

 

[Fish Monkey]

That might be exactly what you want to hear but I reserve the right to PMSL when your engine blows. I don't think you'll find many other tuners that agree with evo400. Maybe if you only run on boost for very short periods of time you'll be OK but how **** a car to drive is that gonna be?

I reserve the right in future to be floored by the flaws in evo400's English abilities

 

[WULLIE]

if you will be using it as a daily driver i wouldnt run 400+

evo400- how many miles have these 400+ engines done?
are you talking about them lasting 2 years but they only get driven on low boost then turned up for track/ 1/4miles??


i wouldnt take a std engine past 380bhp


its not all down to bad mapping. when theres that much power running through an engine, theres massive physical forces acting on the internals.


GINGA- theres no point trying to squeeze the last horse out of a std engine because when it blows up you will need to start from scratch all over again. if you want over 400 then do it safely and get some decent rods/pistons in there first.

 

[GINGA]

Interesting what actually is liable to fail on the evo engine when running high power? as on the gtir (old car) the pistons were the weak point and the only thing that were likely to fail was the ringlands would crack and you'd lose compression on that cylinder no other damage would really be caused and there was no real danger of destroying the engine eg rod through block.
So it ment you could push the engine as far as you dared then rebuild if/when the piston ringlands cracked this way there wasn't much of a risk and if the engine lasted you saved yourself the cost of a rebuild and if it didn't then you'd just have to do the rebuild anyway.
But if the rods are a weak point on the evo engine then its a different story and not worth the risk
Although i've also just noticed that Rc developments don't list a engine rebuild in there stage tuning until after 440hp at 1.6bar on a 25g although I'm sure they would recommend it.

 

[jason4656]

the rods are supposed to be the weak point yes ur right, so if it all goes tits up, say hello to your new little friend, no 3 rod poking u in the face via the side of the block when u take a look what happened there are a few people running that sort of power, but none of them with mass miles as has been stated, personally i have no idea how long it will last. However if you look over on evolutionm.net you might get an idea of what the 4g63 from the evo8 is capable of on standard internals, all be it the figures over there are a bit silly i dont they amount down as far as 150hp over reading over there.

 

[evo400]

how many cars have you guys built ???? how many cars do you ,map and build a month ???? answer ??? none !!! evo400 was always run @ 2 bar min . @ totb events 2.4 bar . on datalogged runs 2.6 bar . evo400 is now owned by a welsh guy and it still runs 2bar every day . sam and i tryed to blow it up .believe me !! many evo 8's are running 450/500hp in the states several with dyno dynamics sheets to prove there results . evo400 had 64k when we sold it .the many failures that were seen in past times were usually mapping issues rod breaking etc etc pistons melting etc etc . or fuel pump failure is another cause . i have never seen a broken rod from absolute power or torque . RC DEVELOPMENTS run many cars on stock internals with 25 g turbo on with out failure . don't believe what uninformed people try to tell you . we went out and found out for ourselves . and what great results we get too !!

shows engineering and a understanding of how things work is far better than thinking you know it all .

also rich w has just done 3 days @ the nurburg ring running a stock engine , it seemed to still be running last night ok 426 hp do ya

dave

 

[WULLIE]

how many cars have you guys built ???? how many cars do you ,map and build a month ???? answer ??? none !!! evo400 was always run @ 2 bar min . @ totb events 2.4 bar . on datalogged runs 2.6 bar . evo400 is now owned by a welsh guy and it still runs 2bar every day . sam and i tryed to blow it up .believe me !! many evo 8's are running 450/500hp in the states several with dyno dynamics sheets to prove there results . evo400 had 64k when we sold it .the many failures that were seen in past times were usually mapping issues rod breaking etc etc pistons melting etc etc . or fuel pump failure is another cause . i have never seen a broken rod from absolute power or torque . RC DEVELOPMENTS run many cars on stock internals with 25 g turbo on with out failure . don't believe what uninformed people try to tell you . we went out and found out for ourselves . and what great results we get too !!

shows engineering and a understanding of how things work is far better than thinking you know it all .

also rich w has just done 3 days @ the nurburg ring running a stock engine , it seemed to still be running last night ok 426 hp do ya

dave

so basically what your saying is that all the people that have spent the money on internals are wasting money then and that the engines are solid for any power as long as its mapped??

ok could you guarantee that then???

 

[WULLIE]

GINGA - contact any reputable tuner from the MLR for proper advice. They are the ones doing this stuff day in - day out. not just the odd engine and hoping it doesnt blow.

if its only to be used for special event TOTB etc then fair enough, 400 bhp will probably work but try using it everyday and kaning it all about the place and see what happens

 

[evo400]

not @ all !! what i am saying is that the evo engine's are good for a nice 450hp max . at this stage i would fit rods pistons etc etc . however don't think a forged engine will be any better ! many steel engines fail due to poor tolerances and oil consumption figures a mini owner would be ashamed of . its all a question of what if !!

how much is a forged engine for 450 hp ? £4000
how much is a stock evo 8 engine ? £1750/2200.

so looking @ the above which is the best route given that you have the very best mapping and replace the stock engine with arp bolts .

see what i am saying in real terms ! if it does blow which is very unlikely if mapped with the latest ecu's its only going to cost you half as much .
and before you say it yes a forged engine is just as suspetable to det melted pistons etc etc as any other engine is . you really need to look from this view . i would love to replace all my customer cars with steel engines !! think of the money it would make me ! trouble is people want to push the boundarys further and further as time goes on .

dave

 

[evo400]

GINGA - contact any reputable tuner from the MLR for proper advice. They are the ones doing this stuff day in - day out. not just the odd engine and hoping it doesnt blow.

if its only to be used for special event TOTB etc then fair enough, 400 bhp will probably work but try using it everyday and kaning it all about the place and see what happens

so tell me how ADR MOTORSPORT the team that build and run the works mitsi cars a non reputable tuner . ADR MOTORSORT build all my engines . far more than 99.99% of tuners on here ever do .
you really should check people credentials first . they use and recommend my products they also run grpa evo engines with stock internals too ! 450 ftlb on a engine dyno .
so like i said before check before you make any silly comments like the above

dave

 

[NumptyScrub]

Since it's mechanical stress that stretches and breaks stuff then it's all down to how you drive it, or to be more precise how high you rev it. We've had people run ~400ftlb on standard internals and last, although they generally never redlined and would change up at 6000ish (I'm looking at you, evo400 and JC ). Those engines that do go tend to be either ragged off the rev limiter all the time, or running the stock map with more boost (with the possibility of detting you get using a 100RON map on 97RON fuel).

Personally I would get the internals done just for peace of mind, but if you want to tune for more power first it can be done. Just be nice to your engine if you do

 

[evo400]

Since it's mechanical stress that stretches and breaks stuff then it's all down to how you drive it, or to be more precise how high you rev it. We've had people run ~400ftlb on standard internals and last, although they generally never redlined and would change up at 6000ish (I'm looking at you, evo400 and JC ). Those engines that do go tend to be either ragged off the rev limiter all the time, or running the stock map with more boost (with the possibility of detting you get using a 100RON map on 97RON fuel).

Personally I would get the internals done just for peace of mind, but if you want to tune for more power first it can be done. Just be nice to your engine if you do

nicely written

dave

ps : we always cut are engine rev limits down on any ecu we map to safe guard the rpm issuses .

 

[WULLIE]

so tell me how ADR MOTORSPORT the team that build and run the works mitsi cars a non reputable tuner . ADR MOTORSORT build all my engines . far more than 99.99% of tuners on here ever do .
you really should check people credentials first . they use and recommend my products they also run grpa evo engines with stock internals too ! 450 ftlb on a engine dyno .
so like i said before check before you make any silly comments like the above

dave

did i mention ADR anywhere??? no.

so because you befriend some tuning companies and give them some stuff to play around with for development makes you the BIG I AM. i think not dave.

numptyscrub, i understand what your saying but thats a bit like going back to go forward. give it more power/torque but reduce the rev range, which then means when you change up you wont be hitting the power band. strengthening the engine should mean exactly that, strengthen. which should allow it to rev higher/harder as its components are stronger.

 

[evo400]

wullie you still don't have any reason why the evo engine is no good for over 400hp . show me all the engines that have failed due to engine strength. also why would you want to rev over 7000 rpm in a turbo motor ??? little pointless as the stock turbo has backpressure issuses after 6500rpm even the evo400 unit but then again you would know that !!! hp doesn't always have to be made @ high rpm . evo400 made peak hp @ 4000rpm ish . but thats not the issue here is it !! the facts are 400hp is possible all day long so long as the engine is suitabley mapped .
dave

 

[WULLIE]

what is the point of making the power peak at 4000rpm?
so by the time your turbo has spooled (how quick are the 400 units at spooling?? approx 3000rpm.) you then have 1000rpm of power before it starts to tail off, but still another 3000revs left in the gear. :shrug: . the only way i see that type of mapping useful is if you were always in the same gear doing a tight circuit race where theres no need to rev it or change gear.

clearly, you werent using that car for the road.

 

[WULLIE]

also why would you want to rev over 7000 rpm in a turbo motor ???
dave

i never said you had to. i dont rev past 7K

 

[WULLIE]

ive heard of a few cars on here spinning bottom end shells witout having any big increase in power