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Madmac Motorsport's Twincharged Evo 5

598115 Views 2421 Replies 217 Participants Last post by  Madmac, 
Madmac
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During the winter build of the old Evo 5 hillclimb slag I decided to look at ways of reducing the turbo lag which was becoming an issue and costing precious hundredths of seconds on the hills last year. It never lacked top end power but the lag really started to get to me and i knew i could make it quicker point to point by reducing the lag - but keeping top end power.
I looked at many possible ways to do this but in the end settled for adding a supercharger to run in conjunction with the turbo.

Designed and built by myself with input from friends and members on MLR, most parts have been fabricated in my garage from whatever was lying around, the end result has been worth the blood, Sweat and tears I've put into this.

We've had her on the dyno at Wallace Performance in Aberdeen and had surprisingly few teething problems considering the unknowns and the huge amount of bespoke parts that needed to be designed, fabricated and made. Initial mapping is done now and the whole package is showing some serious potential! We've decided to keep the system at it's minimum until i do reliability tests and learn how to drive it properly :angel:

I've also designed and built a tubular front subframe and arms (total 9Kg:D) to reduce front weight and while i was at it, it seemed rude not to play with the suspension geometry!

I want to thank a few people for their input and help:

Russ and the guys at Wallace Performance who did the mapping and supplied parts/tea/banter etc. Top guys and never ones to shy from a challenge! Can't thank you enough:smthumbup:D. http://www.wallaceperformance.co.uk/

My mate Steve Marr who is the main technical guru, and who i regularly bugged to ask lots of questions on a daily basis:smthumbup.

My mate Graeme Wight Jnr for his help with the front subframe and major suspension geometry changes, Exhaust and general setting up

Alan Young Engineering Ltd for the quality machined bespoke pulleys and parts, Spot-on parts and great prices http://www.timingbeltpulleys.co.uk/pages/home.php

And everyone else who suffered because of my constant lust for knowledge during the build:smthumbup:D

As yet i've to do some miles and get her setup for the start of the 2010 Scottish Sprint & Hillclimb Championship, so for the moment i'm being realistic about expectations & screwing the nut until i check everything over and get used to driving it. Hoping to do some track testing soon though. I've had her out for a short drive and so far the whole package is working impressively. Instant delivery at anything above 2500rpm with absolutely awesome accelleration in every gear! This is on it's lowest boost setting too....

Over the next few months The guys at Wallace Performance & I are going to refine some of the setup and see what she's really capable of! We know we can find a lot more power & torque with some simple changes.

Meantime i'm happy with the initial results and looking forward to Doune Hillclimb in 2 weeks:D:D Should be fun!

Keep watching....;)

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Madmac
Lee, she'll be out of hiding soon enough:smthumbup

As this has been a lot of time and planning. Can't go giving out secrets like that! I need to keep the advantage over the competition for as long as possible:naughty:
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Madmac
Thanks guys, I get bored too easily:crackup: :D

Just doing the finishing touches now, geometry, ride heights and a good clean up on the outside.

I have a few videos of it on the rollers but can't get them to play on my PC. I shot them with a Sony Ericsson phone. If anyone can point me in the direction of software i need to play them, i'll post one up

I'm hoping for good reliability this year but a lot has changed on the car and much of it remains untested. I'm not going to know until i start the season if last years 99% reliability will continue!

It's a bugger to work on now. Simple jobs involve a lot more removal of components although i think i have the best compromise as the charger is mounted back to help balance the weight distibution. One thing i wanted to avoid was taking the easy route and mounting it above the turbo. Too much weight in front of the front axle on an evo as it is.

Overall weight is down too, below 1150kg with the floor and fuel. More to come if i decide to remove the interior, glass, elec windows, C/L etc:D

How you doing Tony? Will we see you out to play this year?:smthumbup
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Madmac
Rog, you're a genius:smthumbup

On the dyno:
Had a wee bit of wheelspin on this one
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Madmac
Callum said:
When are the Madmac motorsport twin charge kits being released for sale? ;)
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I doubt there would be such a thing as a 'kit' because of the various state of tune of each car previously. A lot of supporting mods need done so any future builds would be best done around existing high spec engines and to each owner's requirements.

You don't want to know how expensive that could get!

This is no doubt a one-off and through ongoing development, should be plenty enough to satisfy my needs for the sprints and hills. Shaping up to show some serious potential though! :)

Grant, we didn't print graphs for the moment, as soon as i drove it i knew it was enough for now! As we refine it we'll get some graphs up
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Madmac
The blower is under the plenum yes. That was done to keep the weight back. It would have been much easier to mount the blower in front of the engine but since it's a serious hillclimb car i gave a lot of thought to the pros and cons of each space and decided the extra work to fit it behind the engine would be worth it. The blower/brackets and pipework added 17Kg to the car but the tubular front subframe, arms and gearbox mounts took 24Kg off the front anyway.

No ECU control of the system other than an AVCR. No clutches or wizardry!

Most thoughts on this are to have the blower working at the bottom end until turbo spools then changeover to the turbo but the control of the valve is usually tricky to get smooth.

I can't say any more without giving up my secrets, sorry!
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Madmac
Another dyno run:D:naughty::D

Thanks to mick for the video

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Madmac
Leaving for the opening round at Doune today. A weekend of partying and racing:D

Did the final bits and bobs to the car last night and took her out for a proper drive to make sure all is well. This is the first time i've really driven her in anger! The new Nitrons feel nice and the car is planted, stable and drives really well. It's like driving a massive V8, torque is awesome and top end power isn't too shabby! Can't wait to see what the system is capable of when we 'tinker' with ratios in the very near future:angel:

Almost caught me out while booting it out of a corner as i was still driving as though i had lag. When i gave it some throttle, my mind was still in 'lag' mode but the engine responded instantly so power came on sooner than expected. This was my only worry - it's very different to drive so i'll have to be careful with the throttle in the corners!

If anyone comes to spectate, introduce yourself. :smthumbup

I'll update when i get back on Monday.
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Madmac
Paul, are you coming over to Modprods this weekend?
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Madmac
stevov said:
good luck to you both this weekend.:smthumbup
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Well, we both took our cars home in one piece!

Saturday was dry and still learning the car, ended on a 46.69s on the first timed run then the rain came so i didn't bother taking the 2nd timed run. set a new class record with the first run. Nothing broke, came loose or fell off so a good start to the season in my book:smthumbup

Sunday was wet in the morning and it looked like it might have dried up for the last timed run but the rain came again. Ended on a 48.05s on a damp track.

Am liking the engine's power and torque characteristics now i've driven it with 'red mist' in competition. Power delivery is very smooth and not like the old setup where it was more like bang -whoosh every time the turbo spooled. Just squeezing the throttle gives instant response in every gear.

Hoping to get a chance to play with blower ratios over the next few weeks to see how far we can push it reliably. I'll update hopefully with graphs as soon as i have them

In-car run 46.69s. Hardly revving it over 6k as i was playing with the torque. Complete with cat pawprints on the windscreen, enjoy:D:
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Madmac
Ian, I don't have dyno graphs at the moment as the last dyno session was more to make the mapping safe until we start playing with pulleys. Once we really start pushing the engine we'll have graphs to show off.

Kenny, I was playing last years runs against the weekend runs and the results are quite interesting! Definately more pull out of the corners and low end torque is noticeable between the videos.

It's not as 'furious' as last year, much smoother and easier to drive. As you can see in the video i was just driving it up the hill rather than thrashing the life out of it. The whole front suspension geometry has changed a lot over the winter so my main aim at Doune was to get a feel for how it handles when i'm leaning on it, as we never got any chances to properly test the car. Our test day was cancelled due to heavy snow on 1st April:eek:

Without giving too much away, she's as quick as last year but top end power is down from last year. The difficulty is getting a belt drive to work with available belts yet still be able to play with blower ratios. The pulley i have on just now is far too big so the system is running at the absolute bottom of the scale. A simple change to ratios is all that's needed to take this up to some serious power/torque and driveability!

I see from the videos the engine is smoking a bit. Not bad considering it's into it's 4th season! A rebuild or new engine spec is going to happen over the summer, not sure when though. The plan was to run this engine into the ground and use it as a test bed for the twincharging setup until i get more of a feel for what spec engine i should be building to complete the project.

It's all development just now and i don't have a big budget to play with so it'll take time to get everything right. There's no way this can be planned on paper so experimentation is needed to find the best compromise now that i have the basic system running and reliable.
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Chuntington101 said:
Stunning setup! would love to know how you are runing the Supercharger and turbo togather. def looks like the turbo is feeding into the supercharger rather than the other way around. but then i cant see a boost pipe leading back to the fornt, only one form the front to the intake manifold......

Chris.
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Clue: It's all about the difference between exhaust back pressure relative to inlet pressure!
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Madmac
marksmart said:
Agreed' I'd be wanting some 0-60's or 30-130's on that Evo as without lag that's taking precious seconds out of the equasion... Awesome build and I enjoy watching the effortless but rapid run that you did.... 55 seconds of sheer smiles all the way :smthumbup

Regards

Mark
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No recent figures but last year on a 0-100mph we did a 4.9s.The top end doesn't feel to pull quite as hard as with the old To4z, so i would think it's slower 0-100, not by much tho. I'm only running 1.8bar boost instead of 2.6bar with the turbo on its own last year and seeing similar top end but without the lag. This is about to change big-time:naughty::D

Now that we have some data and experience of the system it's showing massive potential. ATM it's on the absolute lowest boost we can run. A few small changes and i think it'll be transformed into a fair beast. I've seen the potential of the change we're about to make in terms of torque and power but the drive sytem needed redesigned to cope with the blower, so for the moment i've settled on 'low' power to do Doune. Doune is not the place to be learning massive power! We could have enough torque to pull the ar se out of the block at those revs if we're not careful! We've seen 480ft/lbs torque and around 360hp at 4000rpm. Should be interesting:naughty:

Glad i decided not to go the whole way with the system until i'd driven it at an event. I need more now:crackup:

Forgot about the dodgy gearchange off the line on that run. I touched the lever too early which operated the flatshift and cut the engine for a split second.
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marksmart said:
I've often wondered with these twin charged systems (almost bought a TSI twin charged Golf) whether one feeds the other or they are running separately in their own rights but connected to the same engine..

Regards

Mark
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There's many ways to do it but each has compromises. The VW uses the blower for bottom end torque and the turbo for top end power with a changeover valve programmed for a seamless changeover. I would imagine fuel economy dictated the setup on them.

How it's hooked up is being kept secret for the moment. After all, the easy bit was building it, the success is down to development so i can't go giving that away as it's cost me time, blood and sweat (no tears yet).:angel:
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Madmac
marksmart said:
I'm not looking out to take your secrets, you run that Evo, drive and get your times and show the world what you've managed with it. I for one am impressed and I think that your system and others like it could be the future of Evo tuning and giving the other performance cars out there like the R35's the nudge they need to realise that they're not going to be at the top for ever. Good on you mate! :smthumbup

Regards

Mark
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I believe there's little doubt this is the future of tuning. This seemed the ideal solution to the lag issue and it has more benefits than just the 'no lag'. Starting to attract a lot of interest now. I may turn this into a wee business as it isn't the first engine i've supercharged, and the basic setup is simple enough. Been a lot of work this far though....

Build by a fat bald ugly bloke in a shed in 2 months....:crackup::D
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Madmac
Chuntington101 said:
ok.... are you simply feeding them both into the same manifold? that could work, but would mean the Supercharger is having to boost air at 2.6bar and that would make LOTS of heat!

there are only so many ways you can do this! lol

1) Like VW do with the turbo and SC (supercharger) in series with a baypas valve to bypass the SC once the trubo it upto speed

2) SC feeding turbo. this works as well, however you need a valve that will allow the turbo to breath once it is flowing more air than the SC

3) true compound boosting, this is where the turbo feeds straight into the SC. this would be the simpliest to do, but can take alot more boost to make the same power.

hmmmmmmmmmmmmm
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True, each way has it's advantages and disadvantages. 1) VW engine has been designed for economy and driveability with top end power limited to the size of the turbo. Great for a road car but limited for competition cars.

2) SC feeding turbo will work too but the supercharger needs to be much bigger to flow the same as the turbo, or as you suggest a valve that opens when the turbo outflows the SC. Again, top end is limited to the capabilities of the turbo only as the SC will be bypassed. This is easy enough to setup though....

3) Why would you think it's more difficult to make power with a true compound charge system?

There's a lot more goes on than you would think with all 3 versions.
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RBnemesis13B said:
Very nice setup there mate.
+1. Looks almost OEM to a degree, thats how well executed it is. Yea i think you'd make a fair amount of money by doing a few kits here and there for some Time Attackers.
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Couldn't even think about that until i finish my own one! I need to prove it works and stays together first....

Noticed a crack in the gearbox bellhousing on Saturday so i've spent the weekend removing, stripping and welding etc. Caused by the new style front mount so a small re-design needed to stop it happening again. Now the box is out i may as well refresh the clutch and go for the other mods to take us closer to serious power! Good news is the internals of the box are all in good shape.

With the tubular front subframe a clutch is quite a big job now as a lot more needs removed for access so i may as well keep on top of it for reliability.
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Madmac
Chuntington101 said:
Just from what i hear. there are a few people in the US running tein charged Ford Mustangs. They make MASSIVE power, but the turbo only guys are still making more bhp, often at lower boost lelvels, than the compound guys. However the low and mid range power is often 3-400bhp more! Thats on 4.6ltr V8s.

Would love to see someone do a coupnd turbo kit (big turbo feeding smaller turbo) for the Evo. Packaging would be nightmare though! lol

Chris.
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In a true compound charge system it's down to blower sizing, blower drive ratio and turbo housing size as to how much power is made. If the blower is big enough, it would always multiply the turbo boost within the blower efficiency range so sizing of the 2 compressors is paramount.

Of course big HP figures aren't always best. On a turbo engine, the power comes in hard when the turbo spools and although a higher HP figure can be achieved, it's at the expense of a driveable motor. On a compound system, the low end torque and power can be hugely improved and if it's setup well enough, similar top end figures can be achieved and make the car quicker point-to-point than the bigger power turbo motors.

Packaging an Evo engine bay of any twincharge system is a nightmare - trust me. So many things needed changed or modified to allow this to work.

A big turbo feeding a smaller turbo wouldn't work very well - your total flow would be restricted by the smaller turbo and with using 2 turbos there would still be a lag issue with no real power gains IMO.

It's not all about more boost;) I'm seeing similar top end power figures with 1.9bar on this system as i was getting with the T04z maxxed out at 2.6bar last year.
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Chuntington101 said:
Some very good points, however compunded turbos do work. Here is a link to a guy in the states running a compound 4G63T (NOT an EVO). he is running the same times as he was with his GT42rs (and 150bhp shot for spool) but without the gas.

http://www.lancerregister.com/showthread.php?t=302487

Just a difrent solution to a similar problem (laggy turbo). I would imagine your setup would provide instant boost (ie no lag at all) thanks to the inherent design of the positive displacement supercharger.

i think one of the problems with feed the supercharger with the turbo is trying to fit a big enough cooler after the supercharger. the ideal setup would run an intercooler/chargecooler after each stage, ie an intercooelr after the turbo and then another after the supercharger. but like you say packaging that is a nightmare. lol

Would still love to hear how your setup works, its really bugging me now! lol

Cheers,

Chris.
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Yes, air temps can be a problem right enough. I have a solution to this but in all honesty, it's not needed at the moment with my setup:D. Even when we up the power it's unlikely to be needed

Sorry if it's bugging you all, i actually want to tell the world how i did it but for the moment, my lips are sealed....:angel:
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LGEVO said:
Did u get the crack sorted?:D
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Yeah i have the casing welded up and the fully rebuilt box ready to go back in now. I'm taking the opportunity to replace the clutch while it's apart so no hurry to get it back together just now.

Sorry i missed Crail. I even had the passenger seat back in so i could take you for a stage:D. The crack was big enough to trip over so i couldn't take any chances of the casing breaking away and mixing with the flywheel. Simple modification to stop it happening again. Oh well, that's development for you....!
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