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Madmac Motorsport's Twincharged Evo 5

598542 Views 2421 Replies 217 Participants Last post by  Madmac
During the winter build of the old Evo 5 hillclimb slag I decided to look at ways of reducing the turbo lag which was becoming an issue and costing precious hundredths of seconds on the hills last year. It never lacked top end power but the lag really started to get to me and i knew i could make it quicker point to point by reducing the lag - but keeping top end power.
I looked at many possible ways to do this but in the end settled for adding a supercharger to run in conjunction with the turbo.

Designed and built by myself with input from friends and members on MLR, most parts have been fabricated in my garage from whatever was lying around, the end result has been worth the blood, Sweat and tears I've put into this.

We've had her on the dyno at Wallace Performance in Aberdeen and had surprisingly few teething problems considering the unknowns and the huge amount of bespoke parts that needed to be designed, fabricated and made. Initial mapping is done now and the whole package is showing some serious potential! We've decided to keep the system at it's minimum until i do reliability tests and learn how to drive it properly :angel:

I've also designed and built a tubular front subframe and arms (total 9Kg:D) to reduce front weight and while i was at it, it seemed rude not to play with the suspension geometry!

I want to thank a few people for their input and help:

Russ and the guys at Wallace Performance who did the mapping and supplied parts/tea/banter etc. Top guys and never ones to shy from a challenge! Can't thank you enough:smthumbup:D.

My mate Steve Marr who is the main technical guru, and who i regularly bugged to ask lots of questions on a daily basis:smthumbup.

My mate Graeme Wight Jnr for his help with the front subframe and major suspension geometry changes, Exhaust and general setting up

Alan Young Engineering Ltd for the quality machined bespoke pulleys and parts, Spot-on parts and great prices

And everyone else who suffered because of my constant lust for knowledge during the build:smthumbup:D

As yet i've to do some miles and get her setup for the start of the 2010 Scottish Sprint & Hillclimb Championship, so for the moment i'm being realistic about expectations & screwing the nut until i check everything over and get used to driving it. Hoping to do some track testing soon though. I've had her out for a short drive and so far the whole package is working impressively. Instant delivery at anything above 2500rpm with absolutely awesome accelleration in every gear! This is on it's lowest boost setting too....

Over the next few months The guys at Wallace Performance & I are going to refine some of the setup and see what she's really capable of! We know we can find a lot more power & torque with some simple changes.

Meantime i'm happy with the initial results and looking forward to Doune Hillclimb in 2 weeks:D:D Should be fun!

Keep watching....;)


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Stunning setup! would love to know how you are runing the Supercharger and turbo togather. def looks like the turbo is feeding into the supercharger rather than the other way around. but then i cant see a boost pipe leading back to the fornt, only one form the front to the intake manifold......

Clue: It's all about the difference between exhaust back pressure relative to inlet pressure!
ok.... are you simply feeding them both into the same manifold? that could work, but would mean the Supercharger is having to boost air at 2.6bar and that would make LOTS of heat!

there are only so many ways you can do this! lol

1) Like VW do with the turbo and SC (supercharger) in series with a baypas valve to bypass the SC once the trubo it upto speed

2) SC feeding turbo. this can work also however you need a valve that will allow the turbo to breath once it is flowing more air than the SC.

3) true compound boosting, this is where the turbo feeds straight into the SC. this would be the simpliest to do, but can take alot more boost to make the same power.

3) Why would you think it's more difficult to make power with a true compound charge system?

There's a lot more goes on than you would think with all 3 versions.
Just from what i hear. there are a few people in the US running tein charged Ford Mustangs. They make MASSIVE power, but the turbo only guys are still making more bhp, often at lower boost lelvels, than the compound guys. However the low and mid range power is often 3-400bhp more! Thats on 4.6ltr V8s.

Would love to see someone do a coupnd turbo kit (big turbo feeding smaller turbo) for the Evo. Packaging would be nightmare though! lol

In a true compound charge system it's down to blower sizing, blower drive ratio and turbo housing size as to how much power is made. If the blower is big enough, it would always multiply the turbo boost within the blower efficiency range so sizing of the 2 compressors is paramount.

Of course big HP figures aren't always best. On a turbo engine, the power comes in hard when the turbo spools and although a higher HP figure can be achieved, it's at the expense of a driveable motor. On a compound system, the low end torque and power can be hugely improved and if it's setup well enough, similar top end figures can be achieved and make the car quicker point-to-point than the bigger power turbo motors.

Packaging an Evo engine bay of any twincharge system is a nightmare - trust me. So many things needed changed or modified to allow this to work.

A big turbo feeding a smaller turbo wouldn't work very well - your total flow would be restricted by the smaller turbo and with using 2 turbos there would still be a lag issue with no real power gains IMO.

It's not all about more boost;) I'm seeing similar top end power figures with 1.9bar on this system as i was getting with the T04z maxxed out at 2.6bar last year.
Some very good points, however compunded turbos do work. Here is a link to a guy in the states running a compound 4G63T (NOT an EVO). he is running the same times as he was with his GT42rs (and 150bhp shot for spool) but without the gas.

Just a difrent solution to a similar problem (laggy turbo). I would imagine your setup would provide instant boost (ie no lag at all) thanks to the inherent design of the positive displacement supercharger.

i think one of the problems with feed the supercharger with the turbo is trying to fit a big enough cooler after the supercharger. the ideal setup would run an intercooler/chargecooler after each stage, ie an intercooelr after the turbo and then another after the supercharger. but like you say packaging that is a nightmare. lol

Would still love to hear how your setup works, its really bugging me now! lol


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Madmac, congrats on the sucesful dyno session. Get some new tyres on there and show everyone what power you can make.

BY the way, from the pics i think i have figured out your layout. Very nice mate! I would suggest running a large ICE water tank in the rear of the car for charge cooler. As the presure should only be about half of the total boost you are running it should last a while. at the end of the day you only need the water to tay below ambient for about 60seconds. And you will get better cooling than trying to run a heat exchanger. plus where would you put the bloody heat exchange?lol (looked atthe puics again and i can now see its behind the intercooler/just in front of the rad)

Also what turbo are you running? If you are getting the turbo to spool really fast, might be worth looking at a little bit bigger one.... maybe a GT42RS or even GTx42rs??....or maybe a GT42 frame with GT47-88 wheels? ;) on a serius note a larger turbo SHOULD produce the boost at lower temps and i dont think lag will be an issue for you any more!

Great setup. cant wait to see more puics and vids of the car.


PS are you running any other form of anti-lag? wonder how a bang-bang system would work with the supercharger on there?

EDIT: have you thought about mounting the Chargecooler in the passanger footwell? Thinking it will get the weight of the unit lower down in the chassis and reduce the heat soak form the engine bay....... just an idea. maybe one for the future....
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I am a bit confused, you have a dual intercooler setup?
Why, which is the lack of the first setup with one standard intercooler?
From what I can tell from the pics, the turbo fees into the charge cooler. this then gose to the supercharge. form the supercharge the air is routed to the intercooler at the fornt of the car. then to the intake manifold. This layout would make sence. you will need to cool the air after the trubo and before the SC.

By the way this is only me guessing from the pics that have been posted. would love to know if that is right or not. :)

Great idea with the rear mounted iced water tank Mac!

Also have you thought about using dry ice? i know its a little exstream but i have heard it works well and could give you chargecooler coolent temps well below 0 degree C! below is a guy that doing it on his V8. he also said that the dry ice lasted 10 minuets or so......

"Hey I haven't tried the NOS yet but with the dryice the vapor from it boiling was kinda weird it looked like an eerie fog but it attracted a lot of attention and now I have about four people wanting a system and for the cooling down I was using 10# of dryice and it would cool it down from 80f to -10f in about 4 mins now Im using straight meth and 20#'s of dryice and it will take it from 80f to -40f in about the same time also I am using 2.5 gals of meth j"

"he dryice was about half gone after about 10 mins. of running on and off boost"

Obviously if you run dry ice you would have to vent the tank. Have you thoughtn about spray a little water before the blower? maybe from the iced water tank? this should help keep the supercharger and the air coming out of it a little cooler.....


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Chris, thanks for the valued input.

The tank has been designed to use ice blocks at the moment. If i wanted to use dry ice, i'd have to modify the tank with another heat exchanger because at the moment the iced water is pumped around the chargecooler.

The problem with dry ice is getting a reliable supply that will last the weekend and also to get the heat transfer it has to be mixed with isopropyl alcohol as a 'mush' to be effective. Probably too effective as the mush would be at around -60c which would then freeze the coolant that is pumped through the exchanger and chargecooler! That would also be too cold for the fuel as ideally fuel should be around 0c. Any colder and there's a risk of splitting hoses and the fuel rail , and of course the injectors wouldn't like that! From my research, going colder than 0c on the fuel has no performance advantages.

If the ice block method isn't effective enough, i've been looking at other ways to use the dry ice. It would be possible to fill the tank with water/anti-freeze to -30 and use dry ice to cool that to -25 or so then pump it through the chargecooler. I'd have to experiment with that of course and there's still the issue of the fuel being too cold.

I think it'll be fine with the water/ice blocks. I have an old freezer in the garage so can make large quantities of ice and a few large insulated boxes to keep it frozen. Until i try it, it's difficult to know how well it'll work though. The way this has been built i can drain off some water then add ice and pump it through before reaching the start line. That should last for the entire run (between 28 and 90 seconds depending on the event) and once the ice has melted, drain off more water and add more ice. Hopefully it'll be that simple:smthumbup. The ice can't enter the system or pump due to a mesh

I already carry ice to the meetings to keep the beers and jerrycan of fuel cold so no biggie to take a bit more :D I need to see how this works before going down the route of dry ice though.
Sounds like you have it covered mate! Also the advantage of ICE over dry ice is the cost! like you said its going to be pretty easy to 'make' some more ice, or even go to the local supermarket and buy some for a quid, if you need more. However dry ice is not so easy to come by! Or just take the frezzer with you and make some at the event! lol. How cold can you get your frezer to run at? just thinking if you could cool the ice further. Could you get it down to -10C?.....

12 ltr in 8 seconds? thats shifting some what! what pump(s) are you using? be intresting to see how long the temps stay low. Guess you could always make the tank bigger if the ice wasn't staying cold for the whole 90seconds.

By the way the guy using dry ice was seeing 53F intake tamps on a 90+F day. He also thinks the 70/30 water/alky mixture is freezing with the 20lbs of dry ice he is running! lol If he could keep the liquid as a liquid then he should see really low temps!

By the way, what are the temps of the air leaving the trubo? Obviously they wont be as hot as a normal setup as you wont be running as high boost off the turbo.....



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congrats on the ice box system working. how much ice did you have in there? did you cool the 12ltr of water down first? obviously that would help out a fair bit in stopping the ice melting. Oh did you get any temps of the water after the run? be intresting to see just how hot it got. also what was the water temp leaving the charge cooler? if its above ambient it might be worth sticking a heat exchange back on to cool the water a little before it hits the ice box.

Mac, why do you think a CO2 dicharge system would be heavey? i have no idea how much you would need, but i would have thought a paint ball gun sized cylinder would do for a run. Stick a N2O spray bar in the bottom of the tank and blast ice cold CO2 through the water/ice mixture to keep it cold. you might even be able to fit a temp sensor to activate the system when the water temp got upto a pre set amount?.....

Having said all that maybe its not needed. lol Oh and what where your IAT after the Charge cooler?


The bulk of the ice was needed to cool the water down initially and after the run the water was still cooler than ambient.

We're in the process of building a 6 sensor temperature logger to keep an eye on temps in the ice box, chargecooler, plenum, blower etc so at the moment we don't have any real data. I expect this to be installed in a few weeks - active development as we go. For the moment the ice box works but whether or not i can make enough ice to last a weekend is another worry!

I'll probably look more seriously at Co2 cooling depending on the data we get back from all the probes. It does make sense but i'm not wanting the weight of a bottle in the car if it can be avoided.

Cgood to hear that the water temps are still below Ambient after the run. Be intresting to see how efficent the charge cooler is at reducing the post trubo air temps.

Mac, have you thoguht about yusing a Honda style half width rad? Just thinking that might save a few lbs off the front of the car. The US guys seem to get away with using them even in the hot areas.

I hear from some blowers like a little water or methanol to be sprayed in to them. this is supposed to help seal the roots/screews a little better and obviously increases the air density and thus reduces running temps of the blower. Just thinking you could maybe spray a little of the iced water into the blower to help reduce temps even further....

Also what fuel are you using? C16, Methanol, VP import?....

Sorry for all the questions mate. its just a bl00dy intresting setup! ;)

Mac, Great news about the supercold slush, bad news about the box! :(

Thinking about your setup the other day and was wondering if you have thought about pre 'the first compresor' water/meth injection instead of the chargecooler? i have heard this can result in really low out tmeps from the 'first compresor' and they may even be below the 50 degree C you need! some people recon if you spray enough you alky you can actually get the temps below ambient! :) Also it would mean alot less weight in the car as you would only need a small tank and say an aquamist injection setup. Aslo you could then spray pre 'second compresor' as that would help with efficeny of that unit. and then maybe use the third nozzel just before the manifold. You could still use the super cool slush as that would no doubt help even further! :)

Just trying to think of ways to help with the weight of the car. I know you dont like the idea of additional pumps. but with something like the aquamist system i think they are pretty good! I guess it would cost a bit though. i have seen US guys using cheaper pumps but dont think they run at the same presures as what the UK stuff dose. So you dont get as fine spray.

Or get some bl00dy dry ice in there!!!!!! :)

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All good ideas so keeping an open mind at the moment. We're away to start experimenting with a CO2 discharge system for the chargecooler and doing away with the rear tank. All 'develoment' and until we try it, we won't know how it'll work/cope with the heat transfer.
No rpoblems mate. I'll keep coming up with the wacky ideas! :bored: :frust: :shake: :smthumbup: :smthumbdo: :wallbang: :mhihi: :coolsm: ;):D:angel::cry::eek::confused: lol
congrats on the results with the new blower Mac! Cant wait to see the dyno plot.

How is the ice tank holding up? are you still filling it full of -18 degree C slush?

Been using -29c antifreeze and water but with the new SC, it's coping admirably with water at 15c. For safety, we went as cold as we could to see how the air temps were and decided that filling with very cold fluid was only needed at certain events where the car is at full throttle for a long period. For maximum power, the cold stuff is the way to go, but for my needs, we have plenty power and safety with just cold tap water.

On the dyno, we'll be hooking up the chargecooler to a garden hose for the duration of the mapping and if time permits, do a few runs with the -29c coolant to see what difference it makes.:smthumbup
Thats good news about only needing cold water. Dont forget about using water/meth injection instead of the charge cooler. might allow you to remvoe the Chargecooler and water tank totally! not great for on the road but would be great for racing as it would be lighter.

Grant, yep i agree we're getting close to what the block can handle at the lower RPM. This is something i will address on the new engine but i will struggle to fit a dry sump system due to lack of space for the oil pump(s). The alternator is now in the place of the aircon pump and the supercharger is in the space where the OE alternator was.

I was looking to have a cradle made which cross-bolts through the sides of the block then having it in-line machined to suit the block. We used to do this on the Rover V8 engines with good results. This was after i split a V8 block in two:D. Bit of a huge project there alone. The car has never suffered oil surge on the sprints so until it does, i'll be leaving the wet sump in place but i'm fully aware we're in the danger zone for breaking the block with torque figures like that!

Have you concidered half filling the block? its a technique the US V8 guys use quite alot and seems to work really well for them. they also recon you only see a small incrase in oil and water temps as there isn't a great deal of heat transfer in the lower half of the block.

David byushur runs a totally filled block in his car (coolent only running through the head). He says he can drive the car for 20min with no problems.

Just thinking this would be 'easier' than designing and fitting a cradle.....


PS. could you not mount the oil pumps high up maybe above the turbo? would the pumps have trouble pulling the oil that far?
What are the size of the bolts holding the main caps in place? Could you fit larger bolts? Would using studs be stronger?

I have seen people using a girdle that links all the maincaps togetther. Some then use added fastenings to help increase strength further.

Could a coss bolt main cap be used? is there enough space?
I'd be more worried about the block breaking away with the crank and caps in one section so using bigger studs may weaken the block in that area. I hoped to make something that ties the caps to the sump flange on the block but i haven't looked at the possibilities yet. The engine will be out over the winter for a rebuild so i can have a look at it in detail then. I'm not sure if there's anything available on the market for the purpose. More development required.:smthumbup
Good point mac. I have seen some girdles but they are pretty thin and probably not going to help with the verticle forces at all.......

Whens the next event?
Very nice mods there Madmac. Like the use of the E5 rad for the charge cooler. should be more than big enough for the task. What size ar ethe fans you have installed?
329mm, twin speed so i can increase cooling on the start line :D
I bet you end up running them at full speed the whole run! ;) lol and if that still not enoughthen i bet you could get a twin core rad made pretty quickly using 2 x rads.
Great result there Donald! Congrats. cant wait to see the spring mods and the new dyno graph when its done. By the way who is building the new engine? can you give us any basic specs? are you staying 2.0ltr or stroking it at all?


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