Lancer Register Forum banner
1 - 20 of 24 Posts
G

·
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Heres the scenario.
You hit a tight right hand bend faster than you should have. The car starts to drift, but you know at this rate you will end up in the ditch on your left.

If you lift off will you loose the back end into the ditch?

If so how is the best way to try to get out of this? A bit of left foot breaking? I know this will upset the ballance of the car by throwing weight forward, but would this be less than just lifting off.

I would assume lifting off and applying a bit of left lock will put you front first into the said ditch.

Cheers
Lee
 
G

·
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
All depends how much space you have on the left,ideally as you suggested ..

Lift,left lock controlling the drift by balancing steering and throttle,as the ditch approaches,feel the steering back to centre and floor the throttle.

Very satisfying when you get it right.Sometimes its best to induce drift to take the corner,though on the track too much and you lose time.

Barry:)
 
G

·
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
You don't say whether your drift is understeer, oversteer or all 4 wheels.

You also don't say whether your car is fwd, rwd or 4wd.

All have a significant impact on the answer to your query.

As for left foot braking, anyone who tells you they do it effectively on the road is talking b~~~ocks!! It don't work unless you've got plenty of rear brake bias.

Typically, with a 4wd drive car, I find the best approach is to really viciously chuck it in, preferably while still on the brakes (but whilst coming off them). The key is WHEN to chuck it in - do it much earlier than you would normally (say 5-8 yards). If done properly (not easy or sensible on the road), this should set you up in a nice 4 wheel/oversteer drift in towards the apex. Get back on the power as soon as you've turned in and it should hold the drift all the way to the exit.

Of course, in a PROPER rwd car, power oversteer is merely a twitch of the right foot away...........................

Lift off oversteer in a front driver is crap, cos you have no control over how long the drift lasts - when it wants to come back - it will!
 
G

·
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
As for left foot braking, anyone who tells you they do it effectively on the road is talking b~~~ocks!! It don't work unless you've got plenty of rear brake bias.


well, it works in my car all day long, from terminal oversteer and that was taught to me by an instructor with tens of years of racing history and his job is to instruct and amp; teach on teh limit handling. Also it worked in 2 other rwd mid-engined cars that were there when i found out about it. As i say, its a lot safer than opposite lock |PLS| throttle cos you actually slow down at the same time.


Lift off oversteer in a front driver is crap, cos you have no control over how long the drift lasts - when it wants to come back - it will!

not teh fwd cars i've owned. Seat Leon 20vt and peugot 205 gti (and also corrado) are very adjustable after LOOversteer has been induced.
 
G

·
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
btw: if you dont believe then i should get a video clip shortly which i can mail you of me with the back end way way out then coming in nicely whilst teh car is dramatically slowing down with teh wheels straight and NOT truned away from eth bend.
 
G

·
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
and amp;gt; If so how is the best way to try to get out of this? A bit of left foot breaking?
and amp;gt; I know this will upset the ballance of the car by throwing weight forward, but
and amp;gt; would this be less than just lifting off.

Well, you actually do LFB to control balance of the car in the first place. That is the number one advantage of the LFB. Your playing between the gas and the brakes at the same time, is actually playing with the balance of the car. So, in that case, you would benefit of it and it will help you. Of course, LFB is not a magic and if you got in too fast, there is very little you can really do.

and amp;gt; As for left foot braking, anyone who tells you they do it effectively on the road is
and amp;gt; talking b~~~ocks!! It don't work unless you've got plenty of rear brake bias.

Rear brake bias is not what rotates your car and makes everything to work. You are controlling how much of the weight you want and where (basically between the front and the rear wheels). The traction is proportional with the weight you have on the wheel, so you don't need to use the brakes to make your car to rotate.

and amp;gt; Of course, in a PROPER rwd car, power oversteer is merely a twitch
and amp;gt; of the right foot away...........................

The thing is that any car can be tuned to be like that, not just RWD.

and amp;gt; Lift off oversteer in a front driver is crap, cos you have no control
and amp;gt; over how long the drift lasts - when it wants to come back - it will!

Actually, you probably want to say this for the RWD cars. In the FWD cars you have the front wheels to straighten your car back after you induce the drift of the rear end. In the RWD car, you can counter steer and hope that will bring the car back, but not too far back so you would have to do it again on the other side.

So, in general most of the cars are behaving well if you do the old method of getting slow in and fast out. If the car is tuned better, than you can get faster in without sacrificing the exit speed. But the point is that you do what ever you need to in order to have the highest exit speed. And this is the way for all type of cars!

Good luck

Fedja
 
G

·
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Lee, Rob has asked the key quesiton here.
Do you really mean a drift ?
If the car is in a true drift then you will have very little steering lock on. In fact you can go to straight ahead and stil be cornering.

From the description of the scenario it sounds more like understeer. Yes ?

if the car is truly drifting then it is actually in a balanced state. IE all 4 wheels are sliping. Its then relativley easy to use the throttle and some steering input to adjust the angle and gather it back up. The key is economy of input.
Understeer is an unbalanced state, the rear has grip, the front has bugger all. You need to re-gain that balance.
The key in all manuvers is weight management, All you are doing when driving is moving weight around those 4 wheels. How that weight moves effects how the car handles and reacts.

If the car is simply running wide then you could do LFB, etc but frankly its difficult to do properly and you need to be shown it and be able to experiment. jamming on the old brakes is just going to give you more trouble.
If you've a lot of lock wound on you can't use the power to pull you out/balance the car as it'll understeer like a FWD car under power (with the rears pusshing for added fun). When I reach this point (I have on occasion when the road has tighted slightly more than expected as I didn't read the paralax correctly, or if it has a damp spot (!) mid corner) I find the easiest and safest way is to come out of the throttle progressivly whilst unwinding some lock. Only a few degrees is normally needed. You can feel the front end bite (thanks to the feel-some Evo steering) and you can then use that grip to feed in a bit more steering to get yourself around. (as this point the car should have slowed enough to let you use that grip).
If you have only a small amount of lock then it could be possible to use the throttle to balance the car out. More power would get the back end moving and if you straightened the steering at the same time you could gain front grip and pull yourself around the curve. Only works on shallower, longer curves I've found.
Nailing the throttle with lots of opposite lock only works if the car has already given you big oversteer. using that technique it should be possible to gather the car back up from 90degrees (maybe a tad more) - I've done this several times in mine ! (on very damp surfaces).

There is of course little to do if you've gone into it like the Dukes of Hazard at full bananas. :)

TonyC
 
G

·
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
agreed - if its understeer then ease of gently and unwind the lock. Whilst i find that i tend to unwind instinctively to understeer (and its amazing how much it actually reduces it) the gently part with the throttle is not so easily done esp. when you are heding for a cow as you say or a combine harvester or something
 
G

·
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Hi Guys

Thanks for the info. To clarify I am talking about 4wd and a drift. If you were to lift off I am assuming that it could induce oversteer, so as the car starts to drift I would be wanting to control / stop that. At this stage I would just want to stop the drift and cary on driving around the corner. Getting into controlling the drift would come with training and practice, none of which I have had. So to me I see that out of the options between lifting off and using LFB and not changing pressure on the throttle the LFB tequnique would throw less weight to the front than just lifting off, there fore reducing the potential of loosing the back end and then having to recover it.

Just like to reiterate at this stage it would be more of recovery and protection of the car rather than having a good time on a sideways session. Also this is based on road rather than track driving, so there is not likely to be any run off.

Thanks
Lee
 
G

·
Discussion Starter · #11 ·
when you say a drift do you mean a 4 wheel drift with all 4 wheels sliding (which is what drift usually refers to)
 
G

·
Discussion Starter · #12 ·
wots the best way to learn this stuff, skid pan, track day tuition??? Like Lee C i need a bit of help especially following my recent off roading!
 
G

·
Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Andrew Walsh: www.1stlotus.com

just 90 quid a day with only 4 people so plenty of time with instructor and NOT a trackday but proper limit handling
 
G

·
Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Talking about drifting with all 4 wheels grasping for grip still maintaining forward motion is great at lower speed and accelarating ,wouldn't want to experience it at high speed and a change in road surface in between I would say that [email protected] be shaged if done on the main road what ever driving style you adopt.
at low speed you can actually lift off and then plant the throttle to pull out of any induced oversteer.
if your in control and not caught out .
Best way to tackle road bends is brake straight turn in and accelerate powering out,safer and more controlable .
I,d love to do controlled driving on a reconstucted B road with hedges and no oncoming traffic.:D

Drive safely and on your own side of the road .

On the left hand braking situation tried it but i'm tooo heavy footed |PLS| I always want to change down when braking .should changing down be done 1st and then left foot braking?
 
G

·
Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Hi LEE C,

Tony C (any relation :D ), pretty much sums it up, on roads it's probably more understeer than oversteer drifting (unless you have huge roads to play about with), but in ref to LFB it's a trade that's takes years to get good at.. let alone master (get professional instruction before dabbling with this at high speeds).

I have been rallying for several years in Nairobi and now the UK,(taught by my father-in-law) who has over forty-years of rallying experience (if anyone has the 1996 video of the Safari Rally - Ajit Sagoo in a white golf, that's him), his cousin Joginder Singh is the FIA person of East Africa Rally's inc WRC Safari rally.

Without experience of these types of skills you will hurt yourself and your pride and joy.
Practice things like control from understeer and oversteer on trackdays without the aid of LFB, then once you understand those basic principles you can move to LFB which from my personal experience is only applicable if you have the room and are in a huge drift (mainly on gravel stages, etc), it's a extremly rare technique to use on Tarmac, no one I know that rally ever use this on tarmac.

:) Anyways final point, practice under professional instructors in a desiganted environment, you will definetly benefit from it. :)
 
G

·
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Jackal

Yes we are talking 4 wheel drift so I suppose if you carried on the drift you would hit the nearside kerb with both the front and back wheels at about the same time.

Can you mail that drift vid to me please. You can use my work address [email protected]

Thanks
Lee
 
G

·
Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Dragon
No relation to Tony C. I am not really talking about LFB in the rally, racing sense. Just to slow the car without chucking it in a ditch. More about being too fast into the bend so the car starts to slide (still on the gas at this point).

Paul
I am using my left foot only to slow down on straight roads, or when going around a corner. As you know I still have the fwd Rover. The idea of this is to get the feel for LFB without stamping on the brakes and seccondly so I can stay on the limit of front end traction as oversteering the front just kills the tyres in a short ammount of time. It is also good to be comming out of the bend and get some throttle response. Diesel cars are slow on the pickup. This is not turbo nutter style, just to get the feel for LFB.

Every one else.
I feel ok with the thought of understeer. Just dont want to over cook it on a bend and loose the rear. On an a/b road I expect there is little margin for error and dont want to get caught out.

Thanks for a good response on this.
Lee
 
G

·
Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Tyres have a given potential. i.e. there is a limit to the force that they can input to a car's suspension in any given horizontal direction (no ****).

This potential increases with vertical load. As a car decelerates, either due to lifting-off or LFB, weight is transferred to the front tyres, so increasing their potential. Similarly the potential of the rear tyres is reduced. Theoretically, if either method is applied during 'on-the-limit' cornering to a well balanced car, such as the evo, the only result will be to reduce understeer, or increase oversteer (this is a bit simplistic, but a reasonable model).

It is not necessarily the case that LFB will 'throw less weight to the front than just lifting off'. One of the reason's that rally drivers use LFB is that you can use it during heavy braking, coasting, or acceleration. But modulating brake pressure (and therefore front/rear weight distribution) is far more effective and quick-acting than waiting for an engine to react. It also keeps a turbo car on boost, ready for corner exit.

Finally, all of this (and most of the other posts) ignores the effect of the transmission. I'm not an expert on all of the different road-car evo diff specs, but I'm fairly sure that most of the centre diffs will give varying amounts of locking, which will have an impact on how the car will react in the situation you described (also AYC). This is another reason why LFB is used in WRCars. The active diff strategies usually have a brake pressure parameter, which will modify the mid-corner diff-locking as required. Sometimes, the drivers will use the brakes to control diff locking rather than weight distribution.
 
G

·
Discussion Starter · #19 ·
doggerdonuts

Exellent first post really informative, unfortunately it is lost on me. Dont have a clue what you are talking about. Only wanted to know how NOT to put the car in a ditch if I went into a corner too quickly, having mis judged it rather than deliberate on the corner handling.

Jackal
The lotus site looks the danglies. Will be going once I have the car.

Cheers
Lee
 
G

·
Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Will be going once I have the car


lee, what do u mean ? Where are you going and what car are you getting ?
 
1 - 20 of 24 Posts
Top