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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have read alot of threads about upping the quality of the internals above 330bhp,as holed pistons and bust rods can happen.Would be interested in any one running higher with standard internals,no fuel cut.
My car runs at 290bhp at the moment which means that in theory I have scope of another 20-30 bhp before I need to sort the internals.
Running 1.1 bar with gromet removed 16 psi [I prefer psi]
I have a good filter,de cat exhaust although not de cat pipe[sport silencer]mongoose.
vta valve and thats it.
Now this is where I am very sceptical after talking to guys running full blown rally cars
turbo restrictor and a decent management system and blow my exceleration figure out of the window.
But they run STANDARD internals.Torque is boosted and Bhp remains at an acceptable limit of around 280/300.
I had a look at Cadwell at I think was MichealK'S boost controller Silver VI after lunch.
With the timing adjustments ,a better fuel delivery ,surely the cost of getting a little more power/acceleration is far cheaper than spending 5 GRAND on internals .
Fuel cut and detonation seem to be the worst things the EVO can suffer from that will shoot your rods through the sump.
Would having a good management system be a sufficient start to get my car a little quicker?
Or should I just buy a boost controler and have the detonation dialed out and put my gromet back in with a uprated fuel pump?
 
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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
As you basically said, detonation is the first thing that will kill your engine. People will crank boost up to 20 psi, blow the engine and then say the internals are not up to that load. With proper tuning, I personally feel the stock internals will take a lot more power than people think. Look at PTB, he is running 24 psi daily on a completely stock engine just by carefully mapping and monitoring his engine. If you want to make a lot of power wether it is stock or uprated internals, tuning is the key. If you get a programmable ECU it will be that much easier to achieve.

I wasn't aware that the rally cars ran stock internals. Anyway, if it is not detonation then it will be torque that will break engine internals not power (assuming you are not over reving). Torque is the actual rotational force, power is a measure of how often the force is applied. Anyway, if the rally cars are making those astronomical torque numbers on stock internals it is impressive and encouraging.

With the timing adjustments ,a better fuel delivery ,surely the cost of getting a little more power/acceleration is far cheaper than spending 5 GRAND on internals.
You seem to be saying that stronger internals are an alternative to tuning. That is not true. If you upgrade your internals, you will still need to play with boost, fuel and timing to make more power. What I am doing and what I would recommend is to tune your car on stock internals. If you reach a power level where you are satisfied that is great. Or just keep tuning until the internals can't stand up or until a mistake lets detonation end the fun. At that point you can rebuild with stronger internals. Anyway, there is no gaurantee that detonation won't hole forged pistons and bend forged rods.


If you get a boost controller it won't matter if your grommet is there or not as it is completely disconnected form the pressure hoses. You have to leave it conencted electrically though, or you will throw a check engine light.
 
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Hi everybody

Of course rallye cars run stock internals, they are not allowed to change them! With 32 mm restrictor and a good mapping, they get about 500 Nm of torque and 260 bhp. Now our road cars do not have that air intake restriction (32mm for GrN and 34mm for GrA I think) so you get more power, same or a little less torque. This is with for example Motec engine mgmt.

The thing with road cars is you can change the internals and run even more boost or get a bigger turbo with same or more boost and the con rods will (or should) withstand since no regulations (or checks) apply. Maybe Manuel has info on how his car withstands the higher boost.

Anyway, I've been thinking abou this and came up with the following: I will get:
full exhaust
Motec engine management

You can set the boost to the level you want with fuel supply so no fuel cut will happen even at 1,6 or 1,7 bars. Now IF the engine blows, THEN I will get uprated internals, NOT before. What would be the point anyway? Spend Money?? On the other hand, if it doesnt blow, you've saved money. Please let me know if you think there's a gap in my reasoning somewhere.
 
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Yeah,you save money if it doesn't blow!
But you will get only 370bhp!
Then if it blow,you will spend a lot more money to rebuild everything,you will stay a lot of time without your car as then you will have to order all the parts from Japan,order all the other standard engine parts that are broken and then you will have to find someone that can fit all these parts and if you want digit power to do that you will have to find a way to bring your evo to switzerland,and that will cost you even more money.

Then hopefully after a few weeks and 30000£,you will have your evo back with 500bhp!
But you could have the same thing right now for less than 20000£!
What a good deal!!!

Claudius we know that you prefer a standard car with low end torque,brakes that work when cold,stereo system,ayc,abs and all that stuff that is useful when you go around to find a good restaurant.
That's up to you but don't tell us that you want to get 370bhp to save money,just say that it's fast enough for youhttp://www.ltregister.f9.co.uk/graphics/biggrin1.gif border|EQU| 0 align|EQU| absmiddle >!

[img]http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/mica/WBsonic.gif
 
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Wreckleford

I would agree with yourself about the engine being built already to handle a little more power than we really think,this is why I have been puzzled over the Rally car acceleration with standard internals .Ok the clutch is uprated to take the extra torque along with an uprated diff.
But engine wise they are pretty much the same , just tuned correctly .[Talking basics here]
Mitsi I feel have Dialed in a large percentage to account for some one like me buying a car and thrashing it.
I don't think anyone on this forum had had a blown engine ,just running standard everything or with upgrades.Unless fuel cut and we are all fully aware of this .
The VI extreme ,has the titanium turbo but no suggestion of uprated pistons and bolts etc.
For those that want 400 bhp then ,yes! for peace of mind and progression then all the forged stuff is essential .
It would be worth talking to Howard to see what sort of mapping has been done.
Maxi,
I feel that 340 bhp would be ample for myself with equal amounts of torque ,but I will settle for about 300bhp with 320lbs of torque.NO fuel cut ,or det.
Claudius ,
I have a cd player,250mm sub and 9x6's with tweeters in my van .I only listen to the radio in the car in traffic.I was thinking of transfering all to the car ,but I'm always on the look out for some one to joust with so the radio is off .I have a periscope instead.
 
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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
As has been detailed above, adding 'higher specification' coponents will not give you any specific performance gains, it will either give you 'more' mechanical reliability (if you dont increase power/torque) or it will give you the ability to up the power/torque and give you the same sort of reliability.

Another important factor to consider when comparing 'normal' cars to racing/rally cars, is that generally speaking the rally/race boys will totally strip and check their engine after every race, if they find anything that looks suspicious they will replace it. If you are happy to rebuild your engine after every track day (or even every 'hard run') then you to should not have any problems with standard components and increased power, if however you never open up your engine,and assume that the standard service schedules are going protect you, then I strongly recommend that you uprate your internal bits. (The standard servicing scedule MUST be considered as the barest minimum level of care that you should be giving to your car)
 
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
A few years back at the HKS stand at Autosport show we asked the Japanese HKS guru what the weak link in the 4G63T was - he replied that it was the con-rods, only good for 450hp.

The pistons were always a weak link in the old 8 valve 4G63's - speaking from experience. Forged types are much tougher than the original hypereutectic cast Mitsi ones. Uprated rod bolts are no bad thing and will give you one thing less to worry about.

Unless you are really looking for over 400hp - I wouldn't bother with anything other than the rod bolts.

As for 20k to put 500hp together - I'm sure you could do it for way under 10 if you're handy with the spanners or have a mate who is. Just shop around for the bits.
 
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
450 hp is alot different than 340 before uprating internals .
I personally still feel that travelling along the rally car route with the increased torque ,will save me from having to open up my engine .
I may have a good look at boost controllers as a temporary stop gap ,just to see the diffrence in boost levels .
But really I would like to go the motec route or some thing similar.
As this would sort out the det and fuel cutting .
Reading the jun site info, the 500psi Evo seems a handfull and may get into trouble in the twisty bits in this country .Great for drag racing .
The trouble with all us guys is that we are so far apart ,so comparing and talking Evo is a little difficult.
More EVO meets should be set up.
 
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