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Discussion Starter #1
Hi

I bought the TME today, Blowdog's old car :) Anyway, it had a bleed-valve fitted to it but Dragon Motorsport took it off and now it's experiencing fuel cut. The only mod is a Magnex exhaust.

First question, why the hell would Dragon remove it if it caused problems afterwards?

Second, I've read the posts on the forum about boost cut and they recommend ECU change or a boost controller. However it will be a while before I can do anything like this. Can anyone tell me if this is the device I need (see pic) and give instructions on how it's fitted please (plus photos is possible). I need to give the instructions to the mechanic as he's not done this before (I'm a long way from any 'speciallists' so it has to be done locally).



You can find pics of it at MIVEC.co.uk
 
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Discussion Starter #2
congates on getting the car, looks great....

i had a look at all the pics and noticed you did not have a boost guage (could see one anyway), this is probably why dragon took it off (even though they should of asked you first) as you could turn the boost up to dangerous levels with that little baby....

i should think it is pretty similar in fitting to the dawes device, do a search on here or on scoobynet

lee
 
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Discussion Starter #3
hi dave

the car should not really reach fuel cut as standard. however it has a fuel exhaust and fitler that are working very well it may in certain conditions. but again this should not be a problem to sort out easily and cheaply.

another thing that you may need to check is wheather the previous owner has removed the little restrictor in the solenoid grommet. basically if you look for your 2 port solenoid one of the plastic nozzels that the vaccum pipe fits onto has got a little restrictor 1mm i think. in my 7 it is in hte upper nozzel of the solenoid. if this is removed you will get overboost and fuel cut in some cars. if this is the case and you don;t have that restrictor just get yourself a 1mm restrictor ir even a solder lump and drill it to size. start with 1mm and see how you get on.

if you take the solenoid off and find that you have the restrictor in the grommet. flow the pipes from the solenoid pipes, one should go to the back of suction pipe. the other pipe should go to the T piece then you should have one pipe going to the turbo outlet and the other going to the wastegate. the pipe going to the turbo outlet should have a restrictor this is probably where the bleed valve was connected to. the smaller the restrictor in this pipe the higher the boost. so you know what to do here, make the restrictor bigger. or you can remove the restrictor if it is there. and use your bleed valve as a variable restrictor. that means blocking on outlet so it does not bleed, then you can connect the other two ports one from the turbo outlet to the bleed valve and one from the bleed valve back into the T. as if you are replacing the restrictor with the bleed valve. after that you can keep closing the valve one bit at the time until you get your desired boost with out cut. it should be around 1-1.1bar.


if all fails get your self a manual boost controller like the dawe device for about 35£ and they don;t allow much spiking in boost pressure and will control things nicely for you.


i hope this makes sense. it is a lot easier than i probably explained it. :D


sam
 
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Discussion Starter #4
forgot to say, make sure you check for your fuel cut in 5th gear as it is the most likely gear to get fuel cut in.

a boost gauge will also be very handy here ;)
 
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Discussion Starter #5
Sam,

Am i correct in thinking that the Dawes Device goes in place of the solenoid, or does it go inline??

Rich.
 
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Discussion Starter #6
rich
the dawe does away with the solenoid all together. it fits betweeen the turbo outlet ( one end of the dawe ) and the wastegate ( the other end).
 
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Discussion Starter #7
If it's fuel cutting, AND has the solenoid gromet removed. replace the grommet (lots of other threads about where it is etc) with a mig welder tip machined down to fit. Think the standard size is about 1mm. this might help. Works OK when I lost my grommet anyway. Otherwise buy a boost controller and fuel computer (or GEMS/MOTEC) ASAP. don't put up with it fuel cutting it WILL knacker the engine eventually......ask HH6.

Adrian
 
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Discussion Starter #9
I spoke to Dragon Autosport and they said that the bleed valve I have is normally used to manually INCREASE the boost by bleeding pressure away from the (actuator? / solenoid?) so I don't think I'll be fitting it! They also said that I need to check how much boost it's actually running (which means more stress for the engine unfortunately) in order to decide on the course of action.

** I also need to check to see if the grommet has been removed - can anyone point me to some pictures of where I need to be looking for the grommet and what I need to be looking for please? I've done a search of the Forum here but haven't turned anything up yet **
 
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Discussion Starter #10
If you have increased the breathing in anyway over standard then fuel cuts can occur, it can even occur on a standard engine but only in extreme circumstances.
As has been said above make sure the 'grommet' (restrictor) is in place near the boost solenoid. I will email you photos of where it is tonight so you can check.
Again as has been said above if the 'grommet' is in place and you are still getting fuel cuts the simplest way to drop the boost is to increase the internal diameter of the lower restrictor (which is near the wastegate actuator). I did write an article on how to do this which included photos etc. but I never submitted it as it is too easy for someone to abuse it and increase the boost, something I do not want on my conscience given the results that happened to my car due to the previous owners ignorance (and partically mine at the time).
I will email you the article with the other photos.
You really do need to fit a boost gauge though otherwise you will not have a clue what the results are.

If you are experiencing fuel cuts then just drive gently, don't mash the throttle and preferably keep it below 4,000 rpm. Fuel cuts usually occur when the engine is under load and accelerating hard, it can happen in 3rd, 4th or possibly 5th at over 4000 rpm but it can happen at other times.
 
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Discussion Starter #11
What a load of old tosh!
:mad:

One thing I cannot stand is when a business tries to blag its way out of a situation just because they don't have a reasonable answer for it. I specifically told Dragon not to remove the bleed valve from the car, yet they went ahead and did so anyway. This was when the car was in Quentins possession. They shouldn't be making comments like that at all. Isn't it a little strange that the fuel cuts are reccuring AFTER the bleed valve was removed???

The bleed valve was in place to REDUCE the boost pressure, there is a tap on top as you can see which bled boost which enabled you to measure the how much was fed. This could be altered depending on atmospheric conditions. To suggest that it INCREASED boost is not only illogical (you get fuel cut so, I know, let's increase boost! eh??) but also an unprofessional comment.

Dave, I will email you my phone number, you can then contact me for more detailed information. Rest assured there is NOTHING wrong with the car, the fuel cut is a perfectly normal reaction to going freeflow.

Cem
 
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Discussion Starter #12
Thanks for the advice HH - I look forward to the pictures.

Blowdog, I know the car is a good 'un mate, and I need pills to take the smile off my face:) But I seem to be getting conflicting information from owners and 'specialist' suppliers which is confusing the hell out of me. Until I can be 100% certain that the grommet is or is not in place then I don't want to point the finger at anyone (ie. Dragon). When I spoke to Alan at Dragon (he was very helpful and knew the car) he said that the bleed valve would increase the boost and that's why they removed it (see what I mean about conflicting information and why I'm confused...?).

I intend to do this: (comments?)
1) I have asked the dealer to check for the grommet but to be honest I'm not sure if they are 100% on what to look for although the pictures from HH will help. If it is missing then I'll need to get hold of one or get my man at Camskill to machine one for me.
2) Get the boost pressure checked as soon as possible. The dealer can't do this unfortunately.
3) If the grommet is sorted and the boost pressure is within safe limits (is a safe limit 1.1 bar on a stock ECU or higher?) and it STILL cuts then I'll fit an inhibitor.
4) If it is outside safe limits with the grommet sorted then I'll have to re-fit the bleed valve in such fashion that it reduces the boost.
5) I want to fit a boost guage.
 
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Discussion Starter #13
Dave,
Contrary to popular belief, a bleed valve can be used to both increase or decrease boost from standard.
What you will find though is that you can't drop it below about 0.7 bar because of the restrictor that is currently in the line to the wastegate. If you install the bleed valve and then close it completely you will be getting about 0.7 bar from the turbo. This is the equivalent of attaching the line from the turbo directly to the wastegate actuator and not bleeding off any air at all. When you then open the bleed valve, the boost level will increase but ideally you need a boost gauge to be able to check what the new boost level is and to detect any spikes in the boost. I have an electronic boost controller and can't set it at more than 1.15 before I get fuel cuts, especially in 4th gear at 6,000 rpm.

Andy
 
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Discussion Starter #14
Dave,
The Bleed valve on your car was fitted to it by a friend of mine when cem complained of over boost cut following the fitting of the magnex exhaust.

It was fitted in such a way as to restrict air flow from the boost control solenoid and in so doing, reduce overboost.

The valve is wound in until the fuel cut no longer happens.

this enables you to extract the extra performance while not causing the irritating cut to occur.

The beauty of doing this is that it CANNOT be any worse than standard, it can only reduce boost not increase it, and it does not remove the standard defense mechanism of the car.

The problem was solved beautifully for £15 (cost of valve) and has since been used on another friends evo 6 to solve the same problem.

Why Dragon so casually chose to remove it is beyond me, as they clearly gave no thought to how it was installed and in the process made a perfectly working car, irritating to drive.

I would suggest you get someone who understands what is being done, to reinstall the bleed valve and teach you how to reset it to reduce the overboost, thus solving your problem.

Regarding the restrictor, to my knowledge, cem never removed it, and I doubt the following owner did either. I dont believe it was checked whilst in cems possession, but it wasn't necessary anyway once the bleed valve did its job.

I personally think the bleed valve does a better job of solving the problem, as the wrong size restrictor can unnecessarily reduce over boost and curb the performance more than is necessary, whereas the bleed valve gives you the adjustability to get it as close to the limit of the overboost cut as possible and all in COMPLETE SAFETY.
 
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Discussion Starter #15
hi dave
that is what i tried to say, the bleed valve can also be used as a variable restrictor if on side of it is actually tapped. it is a lot more acurrate than using different sizes of restrictors until you get the right one.

it all depends on where it is fitted.

sam
 
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Discussion Starter #16
I've ordered a boost guage from Camskill Motorsport here in W.Cumbria and I'll have it fitted soon after I pick the car up later this week (possibly fitting it on Friday). I'll ask my marra Mike at Camskill if he knows where the bleed valve goes as he's a whiz with Turbo's.

Thanks for all your help guys!

If you have any pictures of where it should go, diagrams of what it does, or pictures of your neighbours wife naked then please send all you can!!! (pls send pics to [email protected] which is my ADSL account).
 
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Discussion Starter #17
I totally agree that a bleed valve is a more accurate way of doing things than a restrictor mod however an Insurance Assessor may not believe you that those extra pipes are there to DROP the boost. The major advantage to the restrictor mod is it's undetectable unless you start stripping the pipework down.
 
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Discussion Starter #19
The dealer have discussed this with Mitsubishi's tech department now and they've come to the conclusion that the wastegate actuator is faulty. They can't get a wastegate actuator for quite some time however.

Comments please?

If it is the wastegate actuator how to get round this for the moment safely? Bearing in mind that the car could be ready tomorrow if this can be sorted.
 
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Discussion Starter #20
hi adam
how is that beast of yours coming along ;) have you achieved the full plan yet ;)


dave
just get them to fit the bleed valve the same way it was and screw it in until you don;t get fuel cut!!

i suspect you would need to fit it in the same hose going to the airfilter vent. the upper one tube off the solenoid where the restrictor lies in teh grommet. can you find that one? it should be easy enough. if you have the restrictor removed you get more boost, so if you reduce the size of the restrictor you will get less boost. makes sense to me.

so block one of the bleed valve tubes as per the pic. fit it inline with the above mentioned vaccum pipe of hte solenoid. keep screwing ( reducing the air flow) until you don;t get fuel cut. do it 1/2 turn at the time you should be runing around 1.1-1bar. that is 16psi-14.5.


sam
i am going to be in that area of my car on thursday when i fit my air filter i can always take few pics for you :D
 
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