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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
If you have the choice to choose between a modded evo VII which of the two (three) would you
choose and why ?

a) Warrenders 380
b) Ralliarts Extreme - Extreme S

Warrenders 380 looks really cool considering all the engine mods (and the really nice apexi internal display). It produces
about 380 BHP and 319 lb ft torque and is currently priced at £35,995 . People from Warrender seem quite friendly but unfortunatelly
they are located only in Manchester which is a big dissadvantage for those who live in the South. Their warranty lasts for
a year and it directly comes from Warrender, it is not a Manufacturers warranty (that can be extended at the end
of the year using another warranty company). The service intervals are (7Kmiles for the engine, 4.5 Kmiles for AYC)

Haven't seen Ralliart's Extreme (S) in the flesh yet. As far as I know it produces about 340 BHP and about 350 lb ft and priced at
£39,995. The car comes with a 3 year warranty and ralliart has representatives all over UK. Furthermore the Extreme S option
seems quite attractive to me as far as engine tunning is concerned but I would personally prefer it with normal gear ratios, ABS,
E/W and A/C.

Your feedback will be highly appreciated.
 
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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
This should be an interesting thread. Let me state straight away that I own an 7 Extreme so I have already asked myself the question and have voted with my money. I will try to be as objective as I can be, so here goes.

Firstly, the Extreme and Extreme S are very different cars. The Extreme is based on a GSR and the S is based on an RS. The S is a far more extreme car because of the gearing and the lack of sound deadening. The S produces a lot more power than the standard Extreme and because of the gearing, is a lot quicker. However, 90 MPH on the motorway is painful!

What I believe you really want is an Extreme with the S engine in it. I know that Ralliart have made at least 2 of these and the really are the muts n**s! However, the price goes up accordingly. The other thing that you would want is the AP brakes which are extra on the Extreme.

You will read a lot of answers saying that the Extreme's are overpriced and that you could do the same stuff cheaper. Don't believe it. Ralliart do overcharge for parts, but they might not be the cheapest. Their labour rates are also higher than some, but I don't think they are too high compared with normal main dealer rates. If you want cheaper, go to a back street tuner with low overheads and no warranty.

Comparing the cars is more difficult because although they are both tuned 7's, they have very different approaches. Just look at the torque figures. Also look at the spec of the cars. What wheels come with the WRC 380? The wheel and tyres on the Extreme retail at between £850 and £1000 each! But they are stunningly light and look unbelievable. The reduced unsprung weight does make a difference. The Ralliart cars have the internal components strengthened and should be bomb proof. WRC do not believe that they need to strengthen the engine. There is much debate as to which is correct. I suspect that when you add up the cost of the engine build, the wheels and a few other things such as harnesses, the difference is not that great.

But I guess the real questions are which car is faster and more reliable.Reliabilty I cannot comment on. Also I cannot comment on the WRC car but their 340 car, which claims 350 bhp and 316 ft lbs torque, was tested by Autosport as was the Extreme. The Extreme test was more in depth whilst the WRC340 was tested for 0-60 and 0-100. The Extreme was 4.2 secs and 11.0 secs whilst the 340 was 4.33 secs and 11.71 secs. I suspect that the WRC 380 will be very similar to the Extreme because it does have more BHP but lacks the torque. They will probably feel very different to drive.

And that comes to my recommendation. Take a day off and go to Manchester via Dudley. Test drive them all. Don't buy without a try! I think the decision will be clear after you have done that.

Good luck!
 
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Simon,

Thanks for your reply. As you might have guessed, I have already seen the 380 in action.
I was at donnington park (Sunday 26th) and Simon was kind enough to have me as a passenger
for a couple of laps. I can tell you that in the wet we were closing on a Porsche GT2, whilst I had
he impression that Simon was not even trying hard (with me inside). If it wasn't for the 1 year WRC
Warranty and the distance I wouldn't hesitate at all.

Having said that I admit that I haven't driven (or being a passenger in) an extreme (or extreme s).
Any idea how much it would cost a GSR based extreme with the engine mods of the extreme S.

Regards,


Alex.
 
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Find out what lap times at Donnington the 380 was capable of of. The Extreme S managed 1m25 which is very good for a road car. Gearing would have little to do with it, so an Extreme with the S engine would do the same.

The torque will make quite a difference on slow corners, and on the road. Donnington is a very fast track with no slow corners (unless you go on the GP circuit, which you didn't) so it isn't the best way to judge a road car.

The Extreme S managers 355bhp, but nearly 390lb/ft of torque which is stonking. It does this by running as much as 2 bar boost in the midrange which you cannot do without better internals. What boost pressure does the RC car run at? It is confusing as to why their torque figure is so low, as high boost|EQU|high torque. Also, at what rpm do you quote this power figure? Does this car have a standard turbo? These figures only really make sense if the turbo was changed, and they are running low boost, say about 1.4 bar, with a derestricted/decatted exhaust, new cams and gasflowed head. If it is the standard turbo, then I don't understand how they are losing so much torque, unless their power figure is optimistic. At 1.5/1.6 bar, and say 355bhp, this torque figure would be right if the head was flowed and aggressive (272) cams were used.

Have you got the engine spec?
 
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I suspect that the WRC 380 will be very similar to the Extreme because it does have more BHP but lacks the torque

In theory, the more power-to-weight, the better the performance. In reality, a torque at the wheels (not just torque) advantage may help in the 0-60 (where 1st gear in-gear counts) but won't really matter in the 0-100 dash. In general, car A with 380bhp will beat car B with 340bhp (same weight) regardless of torque. If car A has less torque and the same gearing, it will be able to stay in the lower gears longer (|EQU| more performance) and if it has shorter gearing, it will have similar torque at the wheels.

Blade's comments about torque mattering in tight, twisty conditions are spot-on. But don't forget ... it's torque at the wheels that counts, NOT torque at the flywheel.

Ian.
 
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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Blade,the 380 was lapping faster than a Nissan 200sx that was doing 1.30 both cars were achieving this in the wet and on road tyres!The 380 lapped the Nissan in 15 minutes (10 laps) therefore the 380 was lapping in the 1.21's,did the Extreme achieve its times in the wet or the dry?

These lap times are not all Torque you know:)

Neither are Touring Cars

BHP will always beat torque on the track and the road,unless you want to take your Evo cross country ,The Welsh Forests beckon Simon you can then really use that torque there.........

Regards Barry BHP and Virus Free:)
 
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Blade

What is your best time for Donnington - 1.25 I believe. What did Ed manage? Was it wet or dry? This would be a useful benchmark because I doubt the 380 or Extreme S could get close driven by like for like drivers.
 
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Hi Blade, Simon wont have the spec on the 380 Engine,but you are one of the good guys, well liked and respected so Im sure it can be made avaliable ,E-Mail me and all will be revealed in confidence to you.

Regards Barry:)
 
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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Barry, I think Simon is saying that because my car is so light, and so heavily tuned for track use, that it should be able to produce a very fast time on the track, and one that is a good guideline to others. Sure, you can get the same power, but to get the balance right, ah, that is something entirely different.

I don't want to get into a Mine is faster than yours thing, but the sheer balance, rigidity and capability of my car is hard to beat by ANY car. Put my car with just about ANY other car for 20 laps around a track, and I would bet good money on mine being the quickest in the right hands (not mine!) - and that nothing drops off during that time!

Simon, Ed was managing 1m20 or less, though we never had the watch on him when he did his really fast laps.

Evoboy, Droid and SuperL have all experienced it first hand. It is difficult to understand until you have been in it.

Put it this way, a standard EVO feels fast - people who then try a tuned EVO think it is really fast. People who drive EVOs then drive my car think it is something else, because it doesn't really feel like EVO anymore - it is just so different.

I am more than happy for people to come down to a track day and have a go in my car, or compare to anything - but remember it isn't a road car anymore (it is legal, just!)

Still, I didn't build the car to win competitions - just to have a great, reliable driving experience on the track, one that I think I will find hard to top in another car.

On the subject of it not being a road car - what a nightmare it is to drive in the cold! Clatter clatter when really cold, every control is heavy, nothing works properly for 10 minutes until it WARMS up! Bit like an old sixties car!! But when warm... nice! I doubt anyone would want to live with my car on a daily basis.
 
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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Just a final point - on a track, a gain of 1s is hard to get! The difference between first and last place can be a couple of seconds!

Another point - I bet just about every EVO here would beat me on a backroad (not on a motorway though!) - the car is just too stiff for normal roads. No compliance anywhere.
 
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Blade,you read me wrong,the reason I said that your car would not be a good benchmark is for the reasons you stated,it is not indicative of the off the shelf Extreme or 380,also my comments were not directed at you or your car so dont be so bloody sensitive I thought you were above all that.Simon talks the talk ,but I know he cant walk the walk...

And I am also aware what Simon is saying ,and why he is saying it ,I am like you developing my own car,and not out to prove anything just having fun,what the f**k is Simon developing apart from his ego this is all B*ll*x,you disappoint me Blade I have picked up jealousy directed at you in the past but I have always admired your committment and followed your progress with interest ,its inspirational,if your car could be the quickest in the universe I would be pleased for you,am I getting through?

I have spent time and money developing virtually every car I have owned,since 1967, so I do have a some Knowledge,PE tuned my cars in the early eighties ,been their ,done it,and as far as track and driving is concerned I have a competition licence have raced very powerfull race cars so I do no the difference,been their done it,but so what ,god this thread is going the way of so many others ....I give up think I need to take a break from this forum for a few days I sure our leader Simon can keep everyone amused for a few days with his whimsical tales of the legendary Ralliart Extreme in Black with super wheels,and the Ralliart Airfreshener.......:):):):)Hows it going with the Gran Tourisimo Simon are you the Champion,when are you going on your next track day ,Id love to be there,Id pick a dry day though Black really shows up the Dirt!

God that feels better ,Bye Bye Barry:):):)
 
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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Blade,

If I remember well, the 380 is running around 1.4 bar boost and has different cams. Amongst other
things it has an apexi fuel/boost controller and different exhaust. There are quite a few other things in the
list though.

I have no idea about lap times but it felt really quick and powerful compared to my standard E6TME.
 
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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Enough is enough,
i think its only fair to give you a chance to retract this statement,

I don't want to get into a Mine is faster than yours thing, but the sheer balance, rigidity and capability of my car is hard to beat by ANY car. Put my car with just about ANY other car for 20 laps around a track, and I would bet good money on mine being the quickest in the right hands (not mine!) - and that nothing drops off during that time!

as im sure when you read it again,you may be slightly overstating its performance
im sure its very capable,and the spec is outstanding,.......but ANY car ?????

The vultures are circling !
 
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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Barry - not sure what upset you there. I am not sensitive about it at all! Like I have said lots of times, I don't care - I am sure many cars will beat me in a straight line. I know of at least 2 EVOs being built that will be quicker (performance wise) than me. I was actually trying to make a general point about my car being quick on the track, and why it is so (not just engine, but all the mechanical mods). People get jealous if they see figures and parts (and costs as indicates I have money) but if they owned the car they wouldn't be jealous! It is a bitch on the road, and a ******* to the wallet!

Sorry if I upset you, that wasn't the intention - I reread my post and still couldn't quite see what triggered the upset. Oh well, maybe I am getting thick skinned!

I do sense that you are building your own thing, which is why I am keen to work with you on the showdown thing. You have a race license, which is more than I have, but again I wasn't boasting or anything. Perhaps it wouldn't have gone in this direction if we hadn't starting out with comparing lap times at Donnington, which doesn't really describe road behaviour. Again, sorry if I upset you - totally unintentional.

Alex - the 1.4 bar boost explains the low torque, though not the high power, even with 272 cams and a gas flowed head, unless the turbo is different - which would explain it.

Mouton - I won't retract the statement, but will expand on it. I should have said any road legal car. The point about the statement was that any car can be quick on a track, but being quick on a circuit for 20 laps is difficult for most road legal cars because of brake fade and tyre and oil temperatures. Mine will keep on going with consistent fast performance. The only car that has comprehensively spanked it was one of the new Radical motorsport cars which was just an engine and 2 seats! Awesome. The statement is not so much about performance, as endurance -hence the 20 continuous laps.

I appreciate that it looked like an a bold claim without the explanation!

People need to get away from spec sheets - yes, my spec is impressive, but even that says nothing about the way the car handles, performs and endures. I will need to go to an MLR track day so people can sample it themselves.

Hope this clears things up!
 
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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Oh, and Barry, I agree that mine isn't a good benchmark on the grounds you described -it isn't really a road car anymore. As we were talking about DOnnington and lap times, I went tangential as it is a track car!

Sorry again.... hopefully that is paddy over for all.

BTW - seeing as you have a race license, are you a bit handy then at the wheel?
 
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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Actually, drop me a mail Barry and explain what did upset you - I am a bit worried, as I read my original post again and still can't see what is wrong with it! Am I blind? Help!
 
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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
I think this thread has fallen victim to attack by an extremely large green eyed monster.

I have not been here all that long but lately a lot of threads are becoming slanging matches, with a lot of the flack directed at Blade it seems.

I do not know Blade but feel he is getting some very un-needed grief.
He is only trying to help other Evo owners by passing on details of his experiences and findings from the development of his car. From what I have read he is a successful business man which allows him the funds to pursue this development, but surely we should admire the man for this and not be jealous. I have read the thread 3 times and can not find a problem with it either.

This thread started with Alex asking for our help, and turned into a right old mess.

Unless people can keep their personal feeling off of the keyboard I feel this forum is in danger of falling apart.

Dave.
 
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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Bizz

How right you are, M8. At the beginning I said this should be an interesting thread because I knew what would happen. I have re-read my postings and at no time do I attack or knock the Warrander cars. In fact, I advised Alex to test them both, back to back, and you acnnot be fairer than that!

I still believe that knowing Blade's car times around Donnington is very useful as a benchmark. If the WRC 380 is doing 1.21 laps in the wet and Blade's car is doing 1.20 or a little less in the dry with a top racer and 1.23/4 with Blade who by all accounts is a very good track driver, then the WRC 380 is a very good car that needs to be taken seriously.

I cannot understand the violent reactions in some of the postings. I don't understand Barry's posting about this all being about ego either. As for him developing his own car, he is buying his tuning from RC, just like I bought mine from Ralliart. In addition, I am taking the car further with additional tuning.

As for jealousy, I find it a shame that others cannot accept other peoples toys for what they are, that persons car. Whatever Evo you own, you have a great car and whilst I see nothing wrong in aspiring to more and seeing Blade's car as an inspiration, to post what amounts to personal attacks and misinformation out of jealousy is not productive and an example of the behavior that led to the closing of the site.
 
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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Don't sweat it guys - I don't think Barry mean anything bad by it. He probably took what I said the wrong way. I think if you skim posts it is easy to get the wrong end, and he is proud and naturally defensive about his car (as you have been Simon, and I used to be but try not to be). Like Bizz said, I am just trying to help - it is probably just a misunderstanding. I too am not slagging off the WRC 380, just puzzled how they achieved similar BHP to mine at a much lower boost. My tuning experience matches that of Ralliarts, but maybe RC have found a few tricks that we haven't so far! Must be a hybrid turbo involved, which would explain it.

Still - I never take these things personally, and hopefully other people won't either. I didn't build the car to show it off here, I built it for me to have a good time - I work hard enough to justify that. I like sharing my findings with all here, and will keep on doing so - almost whether people like it or not! After all they don't need to read my posts if they don't want to!

If I help some people, then that is great - if I upset some, you can't win 'em all!

I am starting to think this EVO showdown thing may be a bad idea after all... what do you all think?
 
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