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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
My friends car has also judder when braking with his brand new ap 6 pot setup that could not be thru it s brand new

So we had a bad night sleep and tought it over again and again today he called me and said could you do something for me i said yes.
he said go to youre car and pull on youre front wheels so i did i could not believe it i could move my front wheel i think 0.5 to 1 cm and could hear a clonking sound comming out of my right side wheel the other side was ok. my friends car with the ap s juddering had the exactly the same problem my other friend has no judder problems with his ap but he could not move his wheels

So changing discs without changing bearings has no function at all.

so one thing that is bothering me:

does youre wheel bearing go to **** because you have warped discs
or
does you discs go to **** because you have bad wheel bearings

what is first the egg or the chicken:D

andre
 
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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
Andre

After warping various discs , I fitted a pair of new front hub assemblies [ from Co-ordsport ] with my std brembo discs which had been skimmed twice along with some PFC 97c pads and have no problems since http://www.lancerregister.com/graphics/tonguewink1.gif border|EQU| 0 align|EQU| absmiddle >

Difficult to say for sure but I think the hubs were the problem [ I had run out across the face ]
 
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I too had NEW hubs fitted last week and will have NEW discs and pads tomorrow.

Already, with the new hubs and OLD discs the juddering is not as bad.

When the old hubs were removed, one of them had totally seized bearings !

maybe we have found the cure............
 
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Mates

I totally agree with you all. It is an issue with the bearings and hubs. Still waiting though for my new bearings and hubs before I can thoroughly test the movit porker discs. The stuff is still lying around in my garage.

But the most important thing is to not cure the symptom but to avoid it at all. Why do the bearings seize? With common sense it must be because of excessive heat. If it's not the bearings why could the hub have such a comparatively huge run-out? Maybe some of our cars had the wheel nuts overthightened by Mitsi already before we picked'em up! These are just my own thoughts.

We'll see if the porker discs with the superior cooling vents and alloy bell work together with the new bearings and hubs. With those discs the bearings, hubs, callipers etc. should run much cooler so it should already prevent the bearings from getting damaged.

Let's keep up the good work

We're getting closer!

Cheers

Mike
 
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Daved6,

Which hub assemblies did you get (GSR, RS, etc) and how much did you pay for the pair?

I've also got brake judder on my E6 GSR and am looking for a definitive solution.

Anil.
 
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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
The hubs and bearings have been discussed before, have a look at the old threads. It is not a definitive answer to the problem (as has been found out by Dragon Autosport) but placing ANY discs on warped hubs or with worn bearings WILL warp the discs. Check your hub runout before fitting new discs. I am afraid the disc warping issue is very complex and it is not just a single item that is the cure although some items contribute a lot more than others. I have now covered 5000 warp free miles with the Dragon MkIII setup.
 
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
HH6

Thats not much of a recommendation at the speed you drive . ;)

The Dragon kits have been warped before as well , along with all the other makes which would point to a fundamental problem causing this warping problem
 
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Look at it simply

If the caliper is bolted to a fixed piont and amp; the disc is bolted to the Hub any movement or play between these two fixed pionts ie play in bearings / hub run out , will under hard conditions cause the discs to warp.

Looking back with hind sight and the experience I`ve gained trying various solutions / products trying to cure this problem I do believe that the Hubs and amp; Bearings are the KEY to this problem.

My brakes lasted 10 mths with no problems , then once they warped the std discs every pair of discs / pad combination I tried would warp in ONE track day.

Since I replaced the HUB assemblies complete [ come with bearings fully assembled ] I have had no problems even with the original discs back on. These hubs were supplied by coordsport for an E6 GSR and weren`t expensive only £97 each if I remember .

I will dig out the invoice and amp; post part number if required.
 
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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
If the hubs/bearings are the problem there will be a point when they have to be replaced before the discs get warped. The question is when... How many miles and trackdays did you do in the 10 months when your car was fine? Andre, when did your problems start? Right away, or after a certain period of time? This of great interest to me cause I've been fine so far, but I think my hubs will be approaching their limit very soon...
 
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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
i did 7000 km on the road but i drive like a loony on the road it s almost simaler to track driving:D then i went on the circuit after 30 min i warped my standard discs with standard pads and dust shields still on

in the 7000 km i drove i did high speed stops from 240 250 km to 80 km never judder never.

maybe if i had removed my dust shields and used pfc 97c brake pads it was ok but i didn t at that point i never had my brake system running ok after the first trackday

andre
 
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Guys from what you are saying it appears that the hubs are the weak link... HOWEVER... surely simply by buying a new set of hubs from Co-ordsport we are not going to solve the problem.. simply postpone it and then when the next set of hubs go wrong have to buy a new lot and so on...

Are the Co-ordsport hubs different from the std hubs then ??? if so how ?

and if not where can we buy uprated hubs that may stay intact longer...

Or am i missing something here ??

Jevo
 
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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Has any of the AP 6pot users ever warped their discs? If so I'm sure only those who haven't changed the hubs, bearings before or have used carbon/metallic pads. If no-one had a problem with AP 6 pots and new hubs, bearings then in my opinion it's the fact that also the AP discs can get rid of the heat much faster so no problems for the bearings or hubs.
Again also proper air ducting is not existent. The prove are the callipers which can get brown when heavily used. This shouldn't happen. So add more air.
I'm sure the dragon discs can warp when used with the carbon/metallic Mintex F4R (which I also use) as those pads can take so much heat which the disc can't stand. I could see that on my car as my discs went blue but no fading, pad compound still ok. So the pads can take the heat but not the discs.
In my opinion the main focus should be on a setup which runs much cooler anyway. If you can run your system much cooler then you don't need the carbon/metallic stuff but a good organic or ceramic compound with a high friction co-efficient like for example the pagid RS 14 (u of 0.50-0.55, tarmac racing spec pad) which is ceramic based. If you go for the carbon/metallic stuff then get some ducting like Blade has on his car to cool the callipers. But you only need this if you use slicks. Even with the standard callipers you can easily exceed the grip of the road tyres during braking.

These are just my ideas about the problems. I'm no car mechanic or technician so I stand corrected

Mike
 
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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Speaking of hubs. I spoke to Tim at BTR and he rekons that the E7 RS has bigger (read stronger) hubs than the 6. Can anyone confirm this? and if so will they fit onto a 6.

I'm going to buy AP's soon, but will replace hubs and bearings at the same time.

So far the only thing that I haven't warped are standard (skimmed Grp N) discs with Mintex F4R pads. The only problem is that after Croft trackday I stripped the brakes down, and the caliper dust seals have turned to charcoal (Calipers are now a muddy brown colour with brown Brembo writting), and the fluid has gone from clear to black and smells very badly of burnt rubber (piston seals???). Can't be bothered trying anything else out so will buy AP's when the missus lets me.

Adrian
 
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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Andre

When you have the hubs off make sure you take the studs out and check the flatness of the hub face on a surface plate or run a DTI across the face of the hubs , before you bother fitting the new bearings.

I will email you in the morning with the correct torque setting.
 
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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
I got new hubs under warrenty before I put on the Movit Evo 6 front and rear conversion (Monobloc Gt-3)
and have had unbelievable braking performance ever since. After many, many laps on the ring, the rotors don`t show ANY sign of abuse! For DM 8.400 you will get the front and rear setup!!! 4-piston monobloc calipers all around!!!!!!!!!!!!! I will be happy to demonstrate on September 15 th, when we all meet at the Ring.

I think the price is very attractive, especially for all you limeys with the pound being so strong.
 
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