[TCB]

Can anyone tell me why a "propper" ECU such as Motec, Autoronic, Gems etc. is better than the Ecutek reflash of the OEM ecu ?

I realise that for the bigger powered cars (500 Plus) than ALS etc are nesasarry features of the expensive ecu's but is there any reason why a reflash can't cope up to say 400bhp (with other mods etc)?

What limits the ecutek ultimatley that stops it being used to get "Big" power figures ?

TIA

 

[Fish Monkey]

I get the impression from what WRC Tech have achieved that Ecutek could give you 400 (they claim 376 already) I don't know why you couldn't go on from there too. You need proper boost control (AVCR or similar) but most tuners use something like that rather than the inbuilt features of Autronic or MoTeC. Give WRC Tech a call I reckon

The MoTeC and Autronic SM4 do have a fair bit more computing capacity (if that's the right word - they can process more data faster) which might not be 100% necessary but if you're dropping £15k on an engine you want it to last as long as possible so if this is an additional insurance... Maybe!

 

[yesitismine]

The limiting factor of the Ecutek remap is the fact you have to keep the MAF sensor and the others use a map sensor I believe!

 

[TCB]

The limiting factor of the Ecutek remap is the fact you have to keep the MAF sensor and the others use a map sensor I believe!

Thats what I was after - a technical reason why the ecutek can't go as far with tuning as the motec etc.

My reason for asking is that if it will go as far as 400(ish) then I can't see any reason to spend almost 3 times as much on Motec or autotronic when I don't plan to ever get above the point where engine internals need modification.

MAP (presure ?) vs MAF (flow ?) could someone explian in simpleton terms what the difference is and why MAF would limit power compared to MAP

Don't want to know enough to become a mapper - I just like to understand what i'm being sold !

TIA

 

[Razor]

This is only what I know about them so it might be slightly inaccurate. MAF sensors relay to the ECU how much 'air' is arriving towards the intake that enables the ECU to work out how much fuel to add to the mix. Thats why atmospheric dump valves are sometimes not a good idea as they tend to release air that the MAF/ECU has already accounted for making the fuel mix a little rich.

MAP sensor on the other hand measures the difference between the intake manifold pressure and atmospheric pressure to work out how much fuel to add. Though AFAIK they do not record the temperature of the air so you need an additional temp probe to work out the density of the air.

Mark

 

[aus73]

Hi All,

The limit of the ECUTEK system is the airflow meter. The standard airflow meter is encased in a plastic pipe. The bhp limit of the system is directly related to the airflow limitation of this pipe diameter. If you change to a manifold pressure based system then you do not need an airflow meter - so can run inlet systems with much larger pipe diameters and airflow capabilities. The airflow meter measures inlet air temp and air-speed to determine airflow - in grams usually. This is also known as a speed-density system. The MAP based system measures inlet air pressure, and uses an additional inlet temp sensor purely for MAP compenstion - not to determine engine load.

We've run Subaru STi cars on the standard airflow meter/ECUTEK system to 436bhp without any trouble. As a reference, 650-700bhp Skylines run on airflow meters without any trouble. The ECUTEK system does have a facility to rescale airflow meter readings, so you could run a larger NISMO airflow meter on an EVO if you wanted to run an afm based ECUTEK map on a big horsepower car.

The main advantage of sticking with the standard ECU and ECUTEK is that the standard knock control system stays in place. The standard EVO ECU has 2 maps for fuel and ignition - based on knock activity. For road use we prefer systems with an active knock control system.

If you are looking at an alternative system - such as MoTeC or Autronic - you lose active knock control, but gain added features such as anti-lag, launch control, and data logging etc..
The real reason race engine management systems do not use knock control is that on race circuits, the vibration frequency of running over some bumps and rumble strips is the same as the knock frequency on the sensors. This would cause a 'normal' ecu to retard ignition for no good reason, and the engine to lose power just as you exit the corner - which is the last thing you need. There are other issues with offering an active knock system on a motorsport ecu but we don't need to cover those issues here.

Hope this makes sense,

Chris
WRC Technologies Ltd.

 

[TCB]

Thanks Chris

That's the kind of answer I was after.

So do you reckon you could get near to 400hp from a IX GT on a ecutek ? (assuming other neccasarry mods of course) or would you recommend a Motec, Autotronic at that level ?

I will be in touch soon

 

[evo-7]

there is alot more to it than that actually. will try to post something when i am back on monday


sam

 

[TCB]

Thanks Chris

That's the kind of answer I was after.

So do you reckon you could get near to 400hp from a IX GT on a ecutek ? (assuming other neccasarry mods of course) or would you recommend a Motec, Autotronic at that level ?

I will be in touch soon

Sam,

To quote myself then ! how would you answer the above question ?

 

[aus73]

TCB,

The limit of the standard turbochrger is 385-390 bhp. Regardless of how good your exhaust, inlet, cams, etc are, the turbocharger itself will become the flow limitation at this power level.

As the standard rods also become marginal at 380+ ib-ft, we recommend an engine build for power levels over 385-390bhp. If you are going to rebuild the engine and fit an uprated turbocharger, in our opinion you might as well run the engine at 450/520/600 bhp to make the most of it. As the standard afm will run out of puff at circa 420 bhp - you will be looking at an Autronic system.

In my experience V8 Touring car teams prefer to use Autronic engine management, and MoTeC data acquisition systems - given the choice. CAMS regulate MoTeC must be fitted to the V8s now - but that does not mean its a better system. Sorry I didn't respond earlier - I thought you were going to call.

Regards,

Chris

 

[TCB]

PM sent !

 

[Brisance]

The airflow meter measures inlet air temp and air-speed to determine airflow - in grams usually. This is also known as a speed-density system.

It's called a Mass Air Flow system, either MAF or MAS, usually the former as it eliminates confusion. Speed-density is actually MAP. Alpha-N is based on TPS.

The MAP based system measures inlet air pressure, and uses an additional inlet temp sensor purely for MAP compenstion - not to determine engine load.

The MAP system makes use of the ideal gas laws to arrive at the air mass through manifold pressure and air temperature. Load is determined solely through manifold pressure, which is why if your dump valve comes loose the car will still run, only that it cannot make boost.

 

[evo-7]

As mentioned before the limit of the ecutek ecu is the maf sensor . Most big powered Maf sensor type of cars actually switch to map or tps with map correction type of systems.

You can get high flow maf sensors to allow more flow and more power etc, but it is an extra cost and going around the problem and not curing it. For example skylines and GtiRs I would run a TPS based map with MAP correction which is a total pain in the back side but that is because of the multiple butterfly. Saying that the 300zx maf sensor is good for 550-600bhp.

You need to try to visualise the location of the maf sensor which is before the turbo just after the induction pipe. So here is some of the limitations of maf sensor:

Fisrt it measures the mass of air entering the engine and assumes that there is no air escaping any where. Now using large dump to atmosphere dump valves will make things in accurate. Hence erratic idle etc..

Secondly, the Maf sensor in itself can cause a restriction. It is not that you can run a 4inch all the way from induction to turbo

Thirdly the maf sensor is not as robust as the Map sensor, and is more expensive to replace. Around 250-300 for a maf sensor and it is only 50-60£ for map sensor.

Another dilemma is with ECUTEK we cant as yet see which load sites the ecu is actually seeing!! What does that mean in real life is we are not mapping the car live. That is why the engine will have to be turned off and the car reflashed every once and a while. Also the resolution with the ecutek is never going to be as good as the MOTEC for example when I can run a 40x20 grid for fuel. Timing etc.

There would be a lot of guess work involved in the ecutek as this moment of time to make it work with a high powered car. I am not saying it is not possible I am saying it will just take too long to map to get the same result. Plus the result will never be the same either as you are limited to 100flashes according to ecutek. So every time you stop and reflash the ecu the memory is deteriorating slightly.

 

[evo-7]

As for knock correction, this is a different story. Some ecus run the cars very close to knock and keep advancing the timing all the time based on the knock activity. This is what the Subaru ecu does. Saying that the Subaru ecu run a much higher processor, 32bit processor in their latest versions!! Now the evo ecu does not run as good ecu as the scoob ecu as standard. This makes life more difficult. You just cant rely on the standard knock sensor saving your engine!

Your car should not be mapped to produce any knock at all that is why race engines are not running knock sensors. The frequency that the knock sensor uses is very unique to the engine and is not that easily confused by other rattling parts of the car, unless of course they are inside the engine

Knock is post event, what that means is the ecu will actually retard the timing after it happens not before, so the car has already detted by then. After that it will wait for few engine cycles and revert to the standard timing again. Then det again etc. so if you have major problem it will be too late.

think back of the early days of evo and scoob tuning when people just raised the boost up with fuel cut defenders and fuel pump. It still went bang, even with knock sensor to help them


I hope this helps

 

[pblamire]

I see various people talking about replacing the MAF sensor and flow restrictions, so a few observations of my own.

The Nissan Z32 MAF sensor can only measure up to about 500hp worth of air, I know because I maxed mine out on my subaru and put the z32 sensor element into a larger housing.

The EVO used to use a frequency based MAF, probably still does, surely this would preclude the use of normal voltage scaled MAF sensors like the Nissan ones?

I have made "around" 550-600hp ([email protected])on a system with a 3" inlet. From memory the standard EVO MAF sensor is quite a bit larger than this.

Paul

 

[TCB]

Thanks Sam

That answers a lot of questions in a way that even I can follow !

So what upper power limit do you relistically put on the Ecutek ?

On a car that will never go beyond standard internals and hence 400 ish max bhp is there any good reason to spend 3 times more cash on a Motec ?

 

[evo-7]

I see various people talking about replacing the MAF sensor and flow restrictions, so a few observations of my own.

The Nissan Z32 MAF sensor can only measure up to about 500hp worth of air, I know because I maxed mine out on my subaru and put the z32 sensor element into a larger housing.

The EVO used to use a frequency based MAF, probably still does, surely this would preclude the use of normal voltage scaled MAF sensors like the Nissan ones?

I have made "around" 550-600hp ([email protected])on a system with a 3" inlet. From memory the standard EVO MAF sensor is quite a bit larger than this.

Paul

hi paul

i am not sure what is the Max limit for the map sensor to be honest, never really had to max one out on an evo as i usually tend to use other ecus at this power level, motec,gems, autronics etc. i also know that turbulance can cause strange maf readings on the evo maf sensor with certain induction kits. i have seen cars go from rich to lean at the same boost. i think pat has experienced that too sometimes with ecutek. problem with the ecutek on the evo unlike the subaru is we dont have map access yet. something to do with the rate the OVD connection works on the evo being so slow to allow fast live map tracing.

TCB

this is the 1500£ question is not it ?

here is the way i would think about it.

ecutek, is easier and much quicker install were you know everything is going to work as standard straightout of the box.
dealers wont have a clue that it is there so could be warranty friendly.
boost control on the standard ecu is not very good so an extra boost controller is a must. that is another 300£

motec, is not mainstream. some people wear skenoda and some wear omega. both will tell you the time and you will get bored of both after a year!
it is more versatile, so you can take it off and fit it to an evo9 if you wish to do so.
it will allow better boost control out of the box, and using a map system is very predicatable.
it has got a lot more resolution so, theoratically the car should drive better and have slihglty more power.

at the end of the day, if both cars are teh same spec the difference in a power figure at the top will be minimal.

personally i would go the motec route but i am baised. until off course i try another ecu which i like more than the motec.

 

[EvoErik]

it has got a lot more resolution so, theoratically the car should drive better and have slihglty more power.

At the end of the day RC Developments is using a Power FC for their 1000 horses engine -- with cheap 20x20 resolution for ignition and fuel. Motec might be easier to map (and people selling it earn more money, no offense) but the functions it offers more are superflous for nearly all engines here.

Best regards,
Erik

 

[evo7_GERMANY]

There is an alternative out there:

AEM EMS.
Plug and play (EVO 7+8, 3pins to move for Evo5+6), MAF or MAP, Knock control, better resolution than PFC.
Have it in my Evo 7 since 3 Month, runinng very well

Boost/Traction/2Step/ALS/Overboost Fuelcut/Shift-Light/NOS/VVT (EvoIX ready)
Internal Datalogging 512KB, Dual Injectors possible, COP capable/Waterspray/Meth-H2o injection/ dual Wideband closed loop, 4xEGT correction.....

Design by GEMS, same Software
Comes around 2000€ incl. Dual Wideband, MAP and IAT Sensor, Boost Solonoid and all of the above mentioned Functions.

 

[C#]

There is of course the Pectel option too.