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Discussion Starter #1
Guys and gals,
I'm embarking on modifying my stock e6 GSR which at the first stage should give me induction, exhaust (see related thread in tech/exhaust) and ECU, this should give me selectable ALS :D

I've never had a remappable ECU so bare with me while I ask a few dumb questions

For the above setup I'm very unsure about which ECU I should go for and what is supplied with remappable ECU's when you buy them, ideally this is what I'm after

A remappable ECU that allows me to switch between the following settings on the fly
1. CAT - for when I put the Cat back in for the MOT (I doubt I will even need this setting at all)
2. Normal - for day to day driving (I use the car every day)
3. Performance - turn the boost up and brum away
4. ALS - pop pop

I'm assuming that (some) remappable ECU will be tweakable real time via controls in the cabin and that this controller isn't supplier with the ECU, if that is the case any recommendations on what I should be looking at to do this?

I don't want to convert the factory ECU to be remappable as I think this will restrict future modifications (and I do plan on doing more later)

As always your wisdom is gratefully received

Ryan
 
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Discussion Starter #3
dedeffa,

I don't know of any ECU that allows multiple settings like this. The only way to remap an ECU is via a PC, and I don't recommend you do that on the fly, bit too easy to toast your engine!

Properly setup Motec/Gems will cost between £2000 and £3500. The more in-car options to view parameters etc, the more money! You can easily spend £15,000 on that ****!

Unless you are going to be running v. high boost, and high power (which means you really must change the internals), then there is very little point in getting ALS.

Why do you think that reprogramming the standard ECU is limiting? I am running approx 390bhp/350lbft with nearly 1.8 bar of boost on the reprogrammed standard ECU with a boost controller! It is only when the injectors and turbo need to be changed (above about 390bhp) do you really need to think about changing ECUs (EVOboy, chip in mate!). Infact the injectors should flow ok to about 425bhp. Once the injectors have been replaced, it gets complicated controlling them from the standard ECU, and a new ECU may be required.

You definitely don't need a special CAT setting. I doubt an MOT would detect the missing cat (from an emissions point of view) on a turbo car.

ALS is only available with GEMS, Motec etc.

If you are just doing exhaust and filter, and can live without ALS, either get the PE remap or the Ralliart Sports ECU for now, and get a boost controller. This will give you the variation you want (standard, high power etc.). If you really do go the whole hog later, you can easily sell the controller and ECU, so not likely to loose anything. You also get an electronic boost guage built into the controller. Without the boost controller, you should see around 340bhp, and with it around 360bhp at about 1.6 bar (note, change your conrods if you go over about 1.3 bar).

if you must change ECUs, the simplest option is the GEMS unit from the RS450. Don't see the point if not changing engine internals/flywheel/clutch etc.
 
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Discussion Starter #4
there is also the EVO LINK, you guys seem to always forget about that ?. it allows you to change ingition, fueling and boost control, it is around £700. i have been using it over the last 18months with my car and intend to buy it for my new EVO VII if it is available. it also always you to tune it via a laptop or a hand controller. usually use the lap top for tuning and the hand controller for fine tuning later.

i am not really impressed with motec, as it does not offer knock control !!!,
pectel is very good but very expensive.

Autotronic has got a very good processor and is probably better than the motec, IMHO

Gems is good also
 
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Discussion Starter #5
Original Post:

Once the injectors have been replaced, it gets complicated controlling them from the standard ECU, and a new ECU may be required.

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Tone,

Wud not agree with u on this m8 , the OEM ECU shud b able 2 drive bigger injectors if the impedance is the same , the duty cycle wud b less than standard injectors running at their limit so the average current consumption wud b less.

Wud support yr advice on the PE remap of the factory ECU , results speak 4 themselves , despite the many skeptics predicting my engine wud expire it continues 2 run as well as ever , and yr experience is an even more significant endorsement.

Spose some will never b convinced tho , their loss :)
 
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Discussion Starter #6
Evoboy, agreed matey. David Power and I think the ECU is ok to drive bigger injectors, but I am reserving judgement until we try it. The uprated pump and standard injectors are fine to 420 ish at least.

As far as I see it, the only real problems with the standard ECU are lack of anti-lag (which I don't want) and the lack of information (which I can get via other means anyway, like egt gauges etc.). Fuelling is a factor of the injector size, fuel rail and fuel pump. Sure, you may run slightly rich with less mapping points at your disposal, but so what? That is safer than running bang-on, especially with high boost. Boost control from a boost controller is perfectly ok, and has some advantages (switchable boost seems easier). Ignition mapping is pretty much of a muchness.

The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that certain tuners use off-the-shelf motorsport ECUs (or add-on boxes like the AVC-R) just because they can't remap the standard one, not because it isn't capable. Certainly Bozz speed (and several others in Japan) do what PE do. Even Ralliart does, with the Sports ECU. The ECU controlling fuelling/ignition on a 500bhp engine isn't more taxed in processing terms than when the engine is running 280bhp - the number of things to control and input messages are exactly the same. Provided it can interface with uprated hardware (injectors etc.) then why shouldn't it work? It is a bit like saying the standard ECU is inadequate for the standard car, which isn't true - it just has limited tuning potential as the ability to remap isn't widely available.

I do hope to stick with the standard ECU despite the bigger injectors and larger turbo. Would be good to produce a 450bhp|PLS| EVO without going Motec etc. - that should silence critics, but until I've done it, I can't really say it will all work for sure.

BTW, I am up at Oulton park on the 19/12 with Bookatrack. That isn't too far from Brum (well, ish) - fancy coming along? Bought time we met up and talked EVO!
Also at Donnington on 31/10 and 26/11, which is not far from Brum.

MichaelK and amp; Claudius, I know you don't agree - and if it doesn't work, I will quite happily publicly admit you are right, but for now, let's just wait and see what happens, and don't flame me!

Roll on February!

Cheers.
 
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Discussion Starter #7
I looked at the options...

Remap standard ecu
- no technical reason why it can't run a high power evo
- you can't map it yourself/reliant on others
- no datalogging, or programable boost control means you have to buy all these additional things which makes it expensive

sports ecu
-see remap standard ecu

intercept standard ecu
- need air flow interceptor, boost controller, and either bigger injectors or raise fuel pressure
-so expensive
-bodgy

motec
-no knock control (been told they 'don't understand it' but this may be a bit harsh)
-hence you can't run so much timing (if u want to map safe), hence car slower!
-way, way over priced

autronic
-better choice than motec
-their implant may have knock now but didn't
-no boost control so have to mess about with restrictors, actuator, etc

gems
-thought about it sounds good
-more expensive than link

link
-similar to gems
-datalogging, boost control, knock, closed loop lambda all included
-als optional only
-cheapest
-mapping info available on net

walbro
-don't know any thing about it

feel free to add comments
andrew
 
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Discussion Starter #8
hi andrew
this is very strange in here, you mention the word link ECU and no body is even trying too listen ? am i missing something have you guys had a discussion about and decided against it or something ?

what is the chat guys fill me in about your line of thought over this board :)

i have been using link for a while and managed to get 320bhp/310lb/ft out of a UK spec scooby with it !!! i will definitely be getting the EVO link for my EVO VII. if you speak to link microsystem they will make you a custom chip to deal with what ever you want, ie ALS, traction control, water spray, water injection etc....

i may be talking crap as i have not researched EVOs yet but i don't see it any different

sam
 
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Discussion Starter #9
sam

there are 2 links you can get for the evo:
-evolink, straight swap implant (|PLS|need to add map sensor, comes complete with a conservative map)
-link plus, wire in (needs adaptor cable)

i went for the evolink. but the link plus may be better if you want every possible feature

don't know the situation regarding the 7 as my car is a 6

the best feature about the link is that the tuning info for it (including my latest map) is on my website...you can also check theres
www.link-electro.co.nz

the guys at link are pretty helpful and showed me how to fine tune the map, etc which is not difficult

andrew
 
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Discussion Starter #10
hi andrew
i understand that the link plus is a stand alone ecu and not car specific, so you would need a wiring loom for that one.

for the EVO LINK have they not upgraded the chip yet to pc link chip ? i have had the pc link chip about couple of months back and it provides you with most of the specs of the link plus for a car specific ECU ( does that make sense ? :) )
the PC LINK CHIP allows for lab top upload and down load and it expanded the map to 10 rows instead of 6 and the revs to 10000rpm !!!.
 
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Discussion Starter #11
Guys, had a look at the Link ECU site but couldn't find a reseller in the UK or Germany. Where can I buy an Evolink from? Andrew, I suppose you need the serial link and PCLink woftware in order to program it. Also, can you hook up the EGT, MAP, etc. sensors straight to the ECU and maybe fit a display from the the ECU or do you need seperate sensors?
 
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Discussion Starter #12
Michael,

The only UK reseller I know of for the Link products is BR Developments. They sell the basic ECU for GBP695 inc VAT. There are plenty of places selling the Scooby equivalent ECU, PossumLink, you might want to try one of those too, they may be able to source one.

Dave
 
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Discussion Starter #13
MEEP, didn't expect this volume of response, thanks!

Simon,
Was prepared to spend around 2-3k

Blade,
Thanks sensible advice, guess I show my inexperience again, oh well must learn somehow.

I hear you on the re-map on the fly, my naivety made me think this was possible on cheaper ECU's.

RE the ALS, see the ALS thread in Home / Technical / Technical Questions I assumed that since you can get switchable ALS and ALS is controlled by the ECU, that it was the ECU that was doing the switching...Guess I was wrong :D

I guess the switching is done elsewhere, anyone tell me how? I'm a little confused on this actually, if the ECU is altering the valve times to give ALS, how is ALS switchable without altering the ECU?

I agree with what you are saying on the re-programming, but I do plan on doing further mods in the future that would require a different ECU and so it just seemed sensible to buy a different ECU in the first place rather than have to spend on an ECU again at some point in the future, that's the only point I was making.

Good point on selling the controller and ECU later, I just anticipated that I'd loose too much money if I did this, it would also free some cash to spend on other things....good idea :) guess I need to sit down and look at cost in more detail before I decide.

At the first visit to the tuner I will be doing induction, exhaust and ECU, I should then (shortly after I hope) continue with other mods, these will include, conrods, pistons (if I have too), clutch, flywheel etc.

I can certainly live without ALS, as I have said before in another related post (can't find which) the only real reason in having ALS at all is

1. I can get it when I change ECU anyway
2. Used sparingly it should be safe with standard internals and turbo
3. It can be switchable

These all add up to the following thought .oO for a little bit extra cash I can get ALS, even if I never use it I may as well

Erm, just read back what I wrote and its a little disjointed but I think you can follow my thought :)

Thanks
Ryan
 
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Discussion Starter #14
Sam,
I'll defiantly be looking into the Evolink thanks for pointing it out seems good value :)

Andrew,
Great info, thanks.

Anyone else had experience with the evolink? Looks like I'm tending towards 3 choices

1. Re-map with boost control
2. Gems
3. Link

Guess I'll have to do a little more research

Thanks
Ryan
 
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Discussion Starter #15
Anyone fitted something like the hks f con v pro or apexi power fc units?
They don't have als but they have different switchable programs, but need someone that can do the mapping.

What about Torque developments tdi?
 
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Discussion Starter #16
dedeffa,

if you want to go on to higher tuning levels, get an aftermarket ECU straight away. As you say, it'll save you money in the long run and give you the opportunity to alter everything or just minute things by yourself rather than having to go to a tuner and pay shítloads for it everytime. I personally regret going for the remapped-ECU and boost controller route, as I'll have to try and sell those when I switch to my ECU, whichever one that'll be. My choices are pretty much like yours, initially my choice was between GEMS and Motec, where I decided to go for the GEMS, now I'm comparing GEMS and Link. Link is a lot cheaper, but I need more info about what you can connect to the ECU (EGT, etc.) and how much those peripherals are.
 
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Discussion Starter #17
Maxi,

Dunno, but I have heard bad things about TDi, not just in EVO land, but from lots of other people.

Doesn't RC fit the Apexi power fc for Warrender?

Ralliart are also a HKS dealer, so they could probably help, though I suspect a GEMS is a better bet than a HKS.

Dedeffa,

Good luck mate - it is a long rocky road to poverty :D :D Who is your tuner??

I ran my car with stock internals (it had the uprated rods from new), with 1.6bar, 360bhp and 330lb/ft - no problems at all. If you are interested in the spec/costs let me know. It is only going over that amount of power did I feel it necessary to go with uprated internals. Even the clutch was fine, but that depends on your application (I don't do quarter miles or traffic light races!)

Do you know how far you wanna go, and how much you want to limit your spend to? It can very easily become silly money spent!
 
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Discussion Starter #18
Ryan

contact br development, possibly try to speak to Bob Rawle him self as he is a very helpful person.

if you are not planning the ECU for a while you could wait until i get one and then i could help you with yours :)

you can't connect the EGT into it however the new chip seem to have a lot of blank areas were possibly they can add a custom function like this if you want, but it is just as easy to get an EGT gauge.

blade/EVOboy
does the PE chip add to the ECU still use the AF METER ? most ecus motec, gems, link etc don't. i the PE chip does not use it (it never did for the subarus ) then wouldn't need to get a summer and a winter map ?
 
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Discussion Starter #19
Blade,
I'm beginning to comes to terms with the fact that soon I'll have to sell my house and live in the evo to feed my forthcoming habit :D

Who's my tuner, hmm, I deliberately stayed clear of this subject given what my research turned up :( basically there are 2 schools of thought on on tuners

For any given tuner
School A Hates them and School B wants to have intimate relations and possibly children with them.

Its so hard to know who to go with, I really haven’t made up my mind.

I think I will be fine as well on the internal front for a while although I may do a clutch and fly wheel changed sooner as I'd like to be able to do at least a few standing starts but too be honest I'm not that bothered about them at all.

Do I know how far I want to go, hmm, simple answer is no, what I do know from painful experience is that I almost always want to go further than I currently am at, I've now had the car for only a few months and found it adequate when I first bought it, now I find myself more and more often wanting a bit more here and there. I'm more likely to get to a point where the mods that I'm doing suggest buying a new car rather than continuing, its then a case of looking at my bank balance and seeing what the options are, I just hope its not within the next couple of years :)

Ryan
 
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Discussion Starter #20
Blade,
I forgot to mension, yes I'm very interested in the specs and cost thanks, either post em here or email em me

Ta
Ryan
 
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