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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I thought this would be interesting for many of our
petrolheads in this group.

Yesterday I had the chance to put my car on PE's Dyno. The max power/Torque
results I got from it where 327 BHP, 355 foot-pounds respectively. I am sure I was
quoted for more power and torque when I bought the car (350-355 BHP and 380
foot-pounds) :( On the other hand there is more tunning to be done by the (very helpful)
Ralliart guys (to adjust the top end power plus a few other bits). Hopefully I'll have
more impressive figures to display here after the final tunning.

I can add a scanned image my power graph (the current one and the one after the RalliArt
people have finished with the car) in this thread if other members are interested and someone
tell me how to do it.

Regards,


Alex.
 
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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
Alex mate considering the poor results I am not suprised Ralliart are being so helpfull,thanks for the info and keep us posted.I was told the Extreme S was 355bhp 380 torque,the same as you, considering the spec of the car this is what you should expect.

Good Luck Barry
 
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Barry,

As you probably know the RalliArt people don't usually put the car on the Dyno (as if
I am not mistake then don't have one anyway) but they prefer to tune it on a track.
When I got the car back after the first service (1K miles) the car had done only 34 or
36 extra miles. The mapping seems to give me much torque from low revs, quite high
during the mid range but power and Torque are simply dying at the top revs. The car
feels much quicker compared to my E6TME but not as fast (top speed wise) as power
starts droping at 6.2 K revs and after a while very steeply to well below that of the
standard E6 close to the revs limiter. The RalliArt people offered to come to my place,
test the car and fix a few other bits as well. So yes the car produced on the RR about
23-28 BHP and 25 foot-pounds less than the quoted figures. Regarding PE's RR I had
several consistent power readings (for a couple of years now with a few of different cars).
For example I was getting about 290 BHP and 273 footpounds of torque with my previous
completely standard E6TME and definetely more power after 7K revs. As I said the RalliArt
guys were very helpfull so far and I feel that anyone should give them a chance (under the
circumstances) to put the car closer to its claimed power/torque output.

Regards,


Alex.
 
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Lee,

I don't know how to post a picture here and I don't have a site to
host the picture either. If you can tell me how to do it I'll try to post
it tonight.


Regards,


Alex.
 
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Alex the car as you know feels quicker because of the torque.Its a Gems thing I would suggest initially it would be easeir to map your car on a rolling rd,and then fine tune it on the track.Ralliart have built a few of these I am suprised they can't get it right first time.

They do advertise figures for your car,in the mags etc ,I would back the car and tell them when they can produce a PE graph proving that the advertised figures have been achieved to give you a ring,and supply you with a curtesy car in the meantime......keeps it simple and removes the stress.

When you buy a off the shelf tuned model you would expect it ,after running in, to be spot on when you take delivery.Blade has retained the top Gems tuner maybe he can give you the number to pass onto Ralliart.

Personally I would be seriously ####ed off..as I said I wish you luck :)
 
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Original Post:
shouldnt it be,
380 bhp and 355 lb ft
?????
Just Custard,

Any of the 355 BHP/380 lbft , 380 BHP/355 lbft would do fine :)

(Seriously now: it is supposed to be something close to 350-355 BHP, 380 lbft)
 
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Barry,

I want my car to have the quoted BHP/Torqu figures more than you
can every imagine. Believe me on that. There is no reason to put a
fight with RalliArt at this point (considering that I have not even informed
them on PE's figures - they'll probably see the post here first I would imagine).

As you say I agree with you that the car should produce what they claim it
does but this is also what I expect from the car after they finish with it.
Let us just wait and see how it goes. I'll keep you posted.

Thanks for the feedback.


Regards,


Alex.

(I'll try to post the graphs here, before and after final tunning when I have the time).
 
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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Hi Alex,you seem like a really nice guy,I hope they do read this and respond by giving you the best Extreme S they have ever built........

Ralliart look after this guy and give him the special treatment he deserves,not many would be as patient as Alex ,don't take advantage.

We should stick together when a member has problems,

Barry:)
 
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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
hi alex
that is very low actually?? couple of things just don;t compute here. what boost level are you running at the top end?.

top end power will be limited because most likely the car is not holding much boost at the top end. the standard car holds 1.1bar above 6000revs as standard.

the extreme s should be runnign 1.7-1.9 in the mid range a holding 1.5 ?

the other question that springs to mind here, is how accurate will PE when it is a car that is not modded by them?. remember an operator can vary the power as he wants really. it is not that difficult. pe usually rev the car over 7500revs if they reved it lower your car will produce less power and so on...

if you send me your graph i can post over here.

sam
 
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Sam,

Top end boost does not follow below 1.6 bar (according to my boost gauge).
I expect fueling to be right too (in fact very rich), it is probably the ignition timing
that is retarded (a lot).

Ofcourse you expect top end power to be limited, at least in a car that you expect
it to last long (engine wise) but still I would expect it to have at least similar if not
more power than my completely standard E6TME (or any other standard E6 or E7) at those
sort of revs. From a comparative graph of a standard E7 you can clearly see the difference.
As I have my graph in front of me the power of my car (on the wheels) starts falling just
after 6K revs where the standard E7's is falling at about 6.7 K revs. At about7.5 K revs
tha car has just over 150 [email protected] compared to about 185 [email protected] of the standard E7.

The car seems to run about 2.0 bar in the mid range (occasionally a bit more), holding at no less
than 1.6 bars (according to my defi boost gauge).

Regarding PE's accuracy I simply don't know. I've visited their place many times in the past with
both my Scooby WRX STi and Evo and the power figures I've got from them were spot on (according
to the Manufacturers figures) if not a bit higher (290 BHP for my E6 TME, 273 lbsft).

The car was reved to 7.5 Krevs and I specifically asked them to go only that far (I don't want to
hit the rev limiter until the car's tunning is finalised). I personally know the people at PE for more than
2 years now (I ve been a customer of them in more that a couple of occasions) and I have some mixed
experiences with them (some very good, some bad). In any case I don't see a reason why they would
make the results look bad especially if you consider that they got paid for the dyno runs. In fact they
performed at least 4 runs (all of them very consistent as I saw from the Graphs).

Sam, as I said to Barry there is no reason to panic at this point. There seems to be further tunning
required and the Ralliart guys offered to come and check the car along with a few other things that
they need to fix. Who knows, they may achieve even more power/torque than they claim !

(Barry thank you for your good words and your support)

Sam I am sending you the Graphs.



Thank you for your help,


Alex
 
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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Alex, i think the power and torque figures that you have got are about as much as your ever likely to see. Take it from someone who knows!.
 
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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Firstly,ralliart did not build or map the engine that is in your car they sub let that work. The camshafts fitted to your engine have less lift than the standard items (this is where the high torque fiqure comes from).Also your vechicle is running nearly two bar boost pressure as rich as hell with a smaller turbo than that fitted to a standard six,more power and torque from this engine would only be very small if any.
 
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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Mervyn at P.E. is just not that sort of guy,he just isn,t !
sounds like the ignition is the factor holding you back,if,as you say,the boost holds up well.

mr elvis,what makes you say that ???
 
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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
in that case,pray tell us what cams are in said vehicle ?
and are you saying they are all this spec,or just this one in particular ?
yours,
waiting to take it from someone who knows
the whole board is yours......................
i look forward to an intelligent reply
 
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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
these are the graphs posted on behave of alex.

The first one is a comparative graph between my car and a normal
E7. This is the power at wheels graph so no transmission losses are
accounted. Mervyn run the car on the dyno for 4 times if I am not mistaken.
Not all graphs were exactly the same (as expected) but very similar (except
on of the cases that there was a big power) close 6 K revs (possibly wheel
sliping).



The second graph is a power/torque @flywheel graph slightly better I believe
from the one used in the comparison (as it was the best one of all and was
taken a bit later). The RR software adds transmission losses (I expect by
using a sort of a bilinear equation) which have a much greater effect over
6K revs.

 
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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
What gathered my attention are actually not the power figures but the shape of the curves. On Sam's VII and also on the Extreme S it looks like the ignition retards between 4500-5000 rpm. So the power flattens then instead of rising continously. Especially on a custom mapped car I would feel very unhappy about this outcome. I just dynoed my car (TME RSII) and although I can't keep up with the torque figure of the Extreme S the shapes of the curve look much better and also topend is stronger. You can find the figures in my dyno thread. If someone can scan my charts and post then let me know and I fax them for another comparison.
It would be nice to see the Lambda/CO figures aswell to get a better picture.

Cheers

Mike
 
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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
i have emailed sam ,can anyone scan from a fax copy,will it copy good enough,
if so,give me a fax number
 
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