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Discussion Starter · #21 ·
hi there ryan
i think you are a bit harsh on andrew as i am sure he did not mean to offend you in any way. probably getting a bit frustrated with people dismissing link ecu, but you have hit the nail on the head. the problem with the link ecu in this country is that there is only one official tuner and he is too involved with scoobies. also it is more a part time than a full time job for BRD. few points i would like to mention though.

THERE IS NOTHING power FC can do that the link won't be able to manage. igntion, boost, fueling, the link can also get you launch control or anti lag ( i don't think the power FC can do that? ).

i have seen the power FC on 2 500bhp skyline and had a look at the commandor ( hand controller) it is an impressive piece of kit. but it is ALOT more difficult to tune than the link. the ZONE ( tuning points ) are displayed in little dashs (- ) accross a x and y grid, with the loading points for the map ( ie boost levels ) are displayed in numbers 1,2,3 etc.. that does not make sense to me!! so it will take a while to find your way around it compared to link, motec, gems etc.. as they all show you clearly the RPM, IGNITION at the crank, fueling and the related zones. this obviously does not make any difference if all the apexi stuff uses the same loading axis for tuning, like the boost and the fuel computer. that will make RC the most qualified to tune it.

I bet you not that many poeple on this board know how much it cost to buy the leads and software you need to hook it up to a lap top :eek:!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

now the link pros and cons.
only one tuning company. it is a lot easier to tune by individual like us. alot easier to understand. mapping maybe tricky to the un intiated but changing couple of zones by a point or two OR maybe couple of % ( depending on the system used) to add more fuel at the top end after fitting a bigger exhuast etc is very easy. IT CAN BE TUNED by a tunning module which costs £100 instead of 350£|PLS|vat!! it can provide you with data logging straight to your lap top. lap top connection in the form or a serial link will in cost you £40-50 something like that. you can obviously see all the engine parameters that the power fc will show you. actually if you think about it all the ecus will show you the exact same engine parameters. if there is a sensor for it the ecu will pick it up.

what the power fc and link ecu have in common is they are both car specific, if you buy them for an evo6 you will have to sell them on if you change cars!!


NOW full ecus like the gems and motec etc.. ARE more difficult to tune because they are not car specific ( which is also an advantage) obvioulsy alot of the car parameters specific to certain are not automatically stored in. etc.. they how will porovide you with all the functions of the link, plus anti lag, launch control, and the ablility to add modules ( water injection) extra sensors if you want etc... and also if you sell your car you can take them with you to another car. which makes sense on the long term ( i know for a fact over the next 5-10 years i will be buying perfromance cars :D )

motec don't believe in knock control and i have been in car being mapped with motec they guy waited until you actually heard knock inside the cabin before retarting the igintion. OK they use very complex fueling but still what happen when you get a bad batch of fuel? or get a blocked injector?. i feel safer knowing that eh ecu will retard the timing if it senses trouble.

gems has knock control. is it will be my choice when i change my ecu. I WOULD HAVE loved to get link but they have not made one for the EVO 7 yet :( i have contacted them few times so far. actually i am in contact with ralliart NZ just now so something interesting may be developing in the pipe line but i have to wait and see ;).

actually the only difference between all the above mentioned ecu is the processor speeds. does any one know what is the processor speed for the power FC? this is the only area the link is lagging behind the rest of the ecus.


one more thing. ALL ECUS will achieve almost identical power and torque out put if they are mapped the same way by the same person. so it does not really matter what you go for! :)


i am sure i have missed few points but i can't remember just now :)
 
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Discussion Starter · #22 ·
hey claudius ,you don't need a laptop to program it u can use the controller which is better anyway

the processor spends most of its time sitting in a loop doing absolutely nothing, even despite the presence of a real time interrupt it still has time to write out the data log as well which is something the apexi can't do

maybe the programmer has a bit more skill??

ryan
sorry my reply was a bit cryptic for you, here it is in plain english
it has twice features of the apexi and is half the price
ROFL

andrew
 
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Discussion Starter · #23 ·
sam

thanks for defending me!
sounds like the local tuner is crap
or more likely doing v well thank you in the scoobie market

main reason for me posting about the link is so i could swap info in the tuning of it
lots of people email me about it, i don't have a problem with swapping info and unlike most sharks i meet, there is not a catch it is free

agreed all an ecu has to squirt in some fuel and fire the ignition at about the right time
any thing else is icing on the cake

dangerous to run without knock control
without causing a storm heard that 'they' are having trouble with it as the real reason why its not there

need wiring diagrams for the 7 and the miata business in the states is a bit lucrative for them to be bothered i think

andrew
 
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Discussion Starter · #24 ·
Ryan,

The Power FC does NOT come with the boost control module. That's a separate bit of kit, but it will work with any stand alone boost controller, be it the Apex AVC-R or some other.

I didn't have much choice in getting the Power FC-- Motec's are simply way beyond my price range. And as far as I know, there's not that much experience among tuners here for Link, Gems, etc. I got my Power FC including the Commander (but no boost control module) for about GBP 950, but of course I live in S.E. Asia...
 
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Discussion Starter · #26 ·
i think you guys have really hit the nail on the head there. the reason you would go for it if the tuner is knows it well, and there is no alternatives for it. but if there is no boost controller with it, it will be the biggest rip off i have ever seen, 850|PLS|350|PLS|400 |PLS| vat that is almost the same price as the motec!! with 1/2 the facilities?

in the UK i can't see why would anyone get it, unless RC are using it and achieving better results with it than their original set up. off course with the power FC they will be able to map the ignition advance as well releasing more power.

but that is what i think,
 
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Discussion Starter · #27 ·
you are welcome
this is exactly what i got told by possum broune. they have over 300 orders to fill.

have you got the manual for the 6 in PDF yet ?
 
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Discussion Starter · #28 ·
Sam,

I agree that GBP 850|PLS|350|PLS|400 |EQU| grand total of about 1,600 quid is massively expensive, and for that money, yes you can go with a high end fully programmable box like a Motec. But I already have a boost controller that will work fine with the FC, so in a sense that's already a sunk cost .

Since the Motec doesn't come with a car specific map/program, it will cost another fortune again, to get it set-up for my car. Remember, in my case, there's only ONE tuner who really knows Motec's where I live. So there's a hidden cost there, that must be factored-in, on top of the cost of the hardware itself.

Finally I've only paid GBP 950 for the FC itself WITH the Commander. All-in-all, it's a compromise for sure, but one that makes sense for me at least, all things considered.

If I lived in the UK however, maybe it would be different of course! :)

Cheers!
 
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Discussion Starter · #29 ·
hi hespreus

i agree with you. what i am saying is for 1000£ including a boost controller i will get one my self. one of the main advantages of getting an ecu is datalogging. it is much easier to sit down having a cup of coffee and analysing boost, ignition, engine noise, temps etc... now if want to cable and the software for the power FC it is £2000 !!!!!!! and i know someone who paid the money and bought the software.

and you are always better off getting what your mapper is recommending. however if you can map one system you can map most of them, you will just need to spend more time ( read a lot more) on new system the first time you use it.

i am not against it, or with it by the way i am just stating what i know, so i hope i have not upset anyone.
 
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Discussion Starter · #30 ·
Sam,
First thing to say is that this was a very useful posts, thanks gave me a bit more to think about.

As for Andrew, you may be right, I’m sure he didn’t mean to offend and actually he didn’t, its just that I'm just fed up with the pointless attitude of some people on this board, I'm sure Andrew could bring a great deal to this thread should he want to, it’s a shame he has to be like that when he tries to give out good advice.

I really think the reason that people in the UK dismiss the Link is just down to poor support for it the UK, as Claudius pointed out to me last night, do you actually know how many ECU’s are available for the EVO 6? I was surprised when Claudius listed the ones he knew about, the same goes for them, generally people don’t consider a Mines ECU for example as there are no Mines tuners in the UK, regardless of how feature rich the ECU is.

I've looked into the Link and seriously considered buying one; this was actually on Andrews advice the last time I looked at ECU's. Then as now I can to the same conclusion, very nice but there is no one in the UK who I trust to install and map it.

I hear what you are saying about FC being harder to tune yourself, but since the initial mapping will be done by an expert that shouldn’t be a problem, I won’t be doing the initial mapping myself whatever ECU I buy.

I really think what is boils down to is the lack of confidence I have in doing the initial mapping myself and the reassurance, both technical and financial, that I get by paying someone I trust to do the mapping e.g. I can trust that the mapping will be done correctly and IF something does go wrong and they trash the engine THEY will be responsible and have to fix it.

Hesperus,
Hmm I'm a bit unsure about the boost controller part, it seems it does come with an optional for one.

BOOST CONTROL KIT
The Boost Control Kit is an optional kit designed to control boost through the Power FC. Simple connection to the Power FC allows the user to access a full self-learning boost controller. The Power FC allows up to 4 different boost presets for any stage of driving. The high grade solenoid valve is the same one used in our Super AVC-R boost controller. As with the S-AVCR, the Boost control kit allows increased boost response and boost stability at high RPM's

I don't think that this will be as good as using the AVCR though.


Ryan
 
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Discussion Starter · #31 ·
hmm been thinking about this a lot, here's a few things to ponder on

1. I would like to be able to play with my map at some later stage
2. I don't want to risk mapping things in the first place
3. I want someone I trust to fit and map the ECU in the first place
4. I would like to have multiple boost settings
5. I don't want to have to change the map using a laptop

I do need to check thing out more but the FC kinda fits very well, the only bad thing about it is the total cost, this can be somewhat offset by the fact I don't have to buy all the bits at once, its also fit for purpose which is very important for me.

anyway I'll go get drunk
Ryan
 
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Discussion Starter · #32 ·
If the selenoid is the same as on the AVC-R ( Super AVC-R , di it get a promotion?!) that's a good point. can you map the boost as precisely as on an AVC-R is the question here! I was told no.

If you want to play with the map and have different boost settings (like I do) then I think a Gems doesnt do it. I also want to view all the engne parameters like air oil water temp, knock, etc and a Gems would need an additional display (eg. Stack) for that thus it would be WAY more expensive!

I dont have a laptop, i dont want one, I dont want to have to but software, I dont want to run out of battery.

There is already a conservative map in the Power FC!

AndrewN:
 
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Discussion Starter · #33 ·
saki

already a conservative map in the link too!
plug in and drive (slowly)
might have to reconsider those semislicks tho, coming up the hill last night it started spining all the wheels
maybe i have too much torque in the midrange?
luckily the link can control the boost every 500 rpm so maybe i will reduce it there so its not such an animal...

sam
will definately call them next week about the pdf
the link|PLS| manual can be downloaded and explains how they do the antilag and launch control which is interesting
all the links work much the same
last time i was at link the office was jammed full of people,making far too much money i think
possum is going to have 600|PLS|hp in his scoobie at the next hill climb, presumably bob from link will help him map it again like last year

ryan
hope the hangover is not to bad, if u need to break the cycle you can get some stuff called antiabuse which makes u throw up when u drink alcohol
mines is a remap like sports and PE and blitz, so the usual limitations apply
you don't need a mapper to get going, if u don't want to fit it yourself an auto electrician can help
sounds like you are a bit nervous which is understandable
i doubt any mapper will warrant your engine, indeed more likely to insist on you signing a disclaimer

andrew
 
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Discussion Starter · #34 ·
hi ryan
the power FC is good no doubt about it. i am just exploring the other options for you. as far as i know the power fc and the link are the only programmable ecus that are also plug and play ie supplied with an intial map to get you started.

i am yet to see on person that have high and low boost settings on their cars and ever use the low boost setting! why do you want it? if you don't want 2.0 bar of boost just don't use full throttle. at the end of the day you control the boost level with your foot :D.

the tunning module/ commander or what ever you want to call it is very useful. you probably won't be able to see all these parameters when you are driving as for the link you will get one screen per parameter and for the commandor you get them in very small writtings. the only way you can make use of these is when you data log on either a track or private roads. for knock i am using knock link and lambda link, plus oil pressure and boost pressure. EGT and fuel pressure are next.

for the link ecu you can get something called a data trap which is a cheap little module that you connect to the ecu and then hook it up to your printer and it will print out your run!

one thing to bear in mind if you can't understand it how are you going to learn it ?

form what i have gathered due to the poor support of the link ( which in my opnion better than the power FC) the only other ecu offering the same functionality and the ablitity to be mapped via a hand controller is the power FC.


andrew
thanks for your help i will appreciate it. is that Bob murphy you are talking about ? 600 bhp on a scooby !!!! :rolleyes: that is quick




can some one post all the ecus that are available for the evo in here please. i am still searching for something for my 7 :( i think the gems, motec, autronic etc are my only options



sam
 
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Discussion Starter · #35 ·
sam

possum only had 500 last year and still bet monster (yes thats monster of carbon bonnet for evo fame) who had 700 or 800 or something but kept breaking stuff
no bob from link (as in part owner and director), there is something reasuring about discussing the assembler code in my computer with the person that actually wrote it while it is up on screen

here are the computers i know about

remap factory computer:
ralliart
pe
blitz
mines
tomai

implant:
autronic (no knock control, no map - but can buy one from edgell automotive)
gems (map?)
link (knock control, map)
walbro tdi? (no map)
apexi (knock control?)

non specific (may not work, need adaptor cable, no map):
motec
link|PLS| (could use evolink map)
autronic
haltech
wolf 3d
gems
microtech
pectal

other people can probably add some more or correct me on anything that is wrong

i still think for the ultimate you should consider a link|PLS|, has everything and is even cheaper than the evolink, but will need a good auto electrician (or someone that can figure out the wiring) to make an adaptor cable

last i heard link need wiring diagrams for the 7 in english to complete the evolink for the 7 as the only ones they have are in japanese and there was something weird with the earthing when they were testing in japan, lots of people waiting, so if anyone has them let me know

ok half way through cleaning the car so got to go
andrew
 
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Discussion Starter · #36 ·
Andrew,
No hangover, I wasn't drunk, just objecting to how you were talking to me :) simple

The point I was making is there are loads of other ECU's out there but not that diverse usage in the UK considering how many choices there are. I'm not nervous about getting a new ECU, I just know my personal limitations and know I don't have the skill or knowledge to attempt to map the car myself, I'd much rather spend more money and get someone who knows what they are doing to do the work. That way I don't have to worry about doing something wrong.

As for the engine I wasn't talking about warranty I was talking about the car being at the tuners and them being responsible for it while they were working on it, if they do something wrong its there problem to fix it. If I do something wrong I need to dig into my pockets to fix it.

I really do think that if there was a decent link tuner in the UK I'd find it really hard to justify buying anything else, as I said last time we talked about the link, I just don't have the balls or ability to buy the link, use the basic map you get with it and map it my self, I'm just not willing to take the risk.

Ta
Ryan
 
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Discussion Starter · #37 ·
The Apexi power FC,is mappable without the Airflow sensor if required.If you go to the RC Web Site,the spec is there for all to see,even though the software is in Japanese RC can programme the FC with a laptop,as well as the commander.I would have the FC programmed by them ,they are expert at this,and I would'nt need the commander.

When it has been fitted to my car I will tell you what I think of it:)
 
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Discussion Starter · #38 ·
Sam,
Good point about the boost controller always being on full whack :) I'm sure though that minor tweaks etc would require a change to the boost settings, being able to tweak the map when its VERY cold or VERY hot AND tweak the boost sounds good too. A few other things that help

1. The boost controller is cheapish (compared to an ECU)
2. I can buy the boost controller now and fix the fuel cut I have while I save to get cash for the FC
3. When I buy the FC I can still use the Boost controller
4. Boost gauge built in!
5. I can buy the commander at a later date too (not sure I will though)

Anyway, you say that the Link has very good support, can you elaborate a little for me, mutter I think I'm going to have to look into the link again in a lot of detail, ok I have a week off next week and I plan on talking to Ralliart about the GEMS (don't think I'll be going GEMS though), RC about the FC and (who?) about the link. I see what I come up with and let you know.

Ta
Ryan
 
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Discussion Starter · #39 ·
Ryan,good logic...thats the way I went,and am going..I am having the Power FC and keeping the AVC-r.

See next Saturday..

Barry:)
 
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