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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Took my car for a service 2 weeks back and had a test drive of the aforementioned.

What can i say, other than ****, it is seriously quick.

You know that feeling when you first drive an Evo, well multiply it by a factor of two for starters.

Clutch took some getting used to, as did the quick rack steering, but boy does it go.

The ALS is a nice touch, forget dump valves, this is the real deal, flames and all..

Haven't placed an order yet but i just gotta have one.

Haven't posted for a while, any new members running one of these babies?
 
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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
Black VI,

What power output is the S supposed to have?

The only reason for asking is that my Evo 7 is coming back home to me at 6am tomorrow morning, after spending the best part of a week at RC Developments, Warrenders have said that Max at RC believes that this is the fastest Warrender 340 in the country now - probably producing well in excess of 350bhp.

Will know fully when I get it onto Power Engineerings Rolling Road. Fingers Crossed this time!
 
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
AFAIK the eXtreme S is supposed to produce around 360BHP and has a price of £38k. From what I have heard though it's not an 'everyday' car.
 
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
And it's not a track day car either, according to the Track Day Car of the Year supplement in this month's Car and Car Conversions- too much understeer apparently?

Kevin
 
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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
From what I've heard though, the youngsters at Car and Car Conversions couldn't tell the difference between understeer and their mothers' backside and that their report shouldn't be taken too seriously.

Everything I've heard about the S is awesome though, I'd love to have a drive, pity I can't afford one! :(
 
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Just got back from Ralliart having my Extreme 1st service. Went out for half an hour in the Extreme S. How anybody can knock the car for understeer is totally beyond me. OK, if you go at 120mph and spin the wheel then any car will understeer. In addition, low speed corners can produce mild understeer but that depends on your driving style. It seems the person who wrote the CCC report had no racing experience save for some indoor carting !!! Expect to see the car being reviewed by some serious driver/journalists soon.

This is the fastest road car I have ever driven. The handling is unreal. Within a very short period I was drifting the car around at fairly high speed in the most easily controlable manner you can imagine. Not wild hooligan oversteer or speed sapping slides. Just perfect,on the power, using all the road to the max, grin generating driving experience. I suspect that a car with AYC would ultimately corner faster (stand back and light touch paper!) but this is far more fun. Brakes are out of this world. Paddle clutch is brutal but thats the way I like it. The quick rack and short throw gear change complete the picture. Unreal :D

I am beginning to think I will need to change my Extreme for an S next year. Or upgrade my car ???
 
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
BTW, the thing that makes the car really special isn't the BHP, its the tourque. Although they are keeping the figure close to their chests, I suspect that it will be found to produce 390 - 400 ft/lbs of tourque.
 
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
There's a lot being said about this CCC article and from what I can tell by a lot people who haven't seen the offending article or making unsubstantiatied claims. Anyway for those of you in the dark check out out the article here. I personally found the whole supplement very interesting, looking at which of the cars (13 in total) make the best track day cars.

Simon,

Perhaps the testers (there were 4 in all) are not professional drivers, just every day enthusiasts like you and me, but perhaps that makes for a better test and opinion?

Dave
 
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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Original Post:
BTW, the thing that makes the car really special isn't the BHP, its the tourque. Although they are keeping the figure close to their chests, I suspect that it will be found to produce 390 - 400 ft/lbs of tourque.
A 45% increase in torque but only a 28% increase in power? I'd be surprised. What boost is this car running?

Can anyone confirm this for sure and leave me pleasantly surprised? ;)

Ian.
 
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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I don't care what the power is and ralliart aren't releasing any claims because they haven't finished development. However, adding all things together, the BHP is about 360 and the tourque is between 390 and 400 ft/lbs.

I doubt Ralliart really care if people don't believe their claims because the cars speak for themselves. Take the Extreme, they claim 340 BHP and 350 ft/lbs tourque. Autocar tested the car at 4.2 seconds to 60 and in all, faster times than for instance the Warrander 340 which claims 340 BHP and 315 ft/lbs of tourque. So, about right I would say. The Extreme S is in a different class. Expect a 0-60 time of easily sub 4 secs, with suggestions of 3.8 or even 3.7 believable. To get those figures, or even the figures produced by the Extreme, needs substancially more than standard power and if you believe the Warrander power figures, which I do, then either Ralliart are understating the BHP or the tourque really is that high. I cannot believe for one moment that they are giving false figures because there would be no milage in that.

The other evidence is that Toney, who developes the specials at Ralliart, used to develop the works rally cars. The latest rally cars produce about 310-320 BHP and 390 ft/lbs of tourque! Toney carries the principal of tuning for tourque through to the cars he now works on.

Finally, I don't know what boost the S is at but I believe that my Extreme was turned up to 1.5 bar today. This was set up on the road but they would not let me see what they were doing but after the first run I heard them comment that it was only peaking at 1.4 and settling back to 1.2-1.3. 15 minutes later, they were happy and I can assure you, so am I :D :D
 
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Simon,

I wasn't questioning any claims I just expressed that it was odd to have such a high torque figure for a relatively low power figure. It implies an engine that has a huge swell of torque low down with a fast drop-off as the revs rise and peak power approaches. It doesn't sound very balanced and sounds closer in characteristic to a turbo-diesel rather than a turbo-petrol.

For measurements such as standing 1/4 mile or 0-100, it matters absolutely zilch what mid-range torque an engine develops ... what counts is the profile of the torque curve on and around the point of maximum power. It's a similar story with 0-60 (which I think is a pointless measurement) but mid-range torque in 1st gear does play a slightly more important role over other performance metrics (as does traction, driver skill, surface conditions etc. etc.) but at the end of the day, it's still power-to-weight ratio that counts. Plot a graph with PWR on the X-axis and 0-60 on the Y axis of a plentiful sample of cars and you'll get something approaching a curve. You'll get a better curve with 0-100 or standing 1/4 mile time. Try that with torque-to-weight ratio across a wide range of different types of engine and you'll get a mess.

So, as long as Ralliart are assuming that their customers are naive enough to think that 0-60 defines the performance capabilities of a car then they've picked the right approach. However, if they really have gone to all the trouble of getting 390-400lb/ft then you might be right that they're significantly understating the actual power output. I can assure you that shaving 12% off a 4.2sec 0-60 takes much, much more than an extra 8% power ... or the prediction of a 3.7-3.8sec 0-60 time is desperately optimistic. You decide ;)

Ian.
 
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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
I repeat, Ralliart are not making any claims. It was me who quoted the performance figures. As for the power outputs, they have not released themand I was only trying to add together things that I had heard. The real point is that the Extreme S is the fastest road legal car I have ever driven. Without doing a my experience is better than... type of arguement just take it from me that at the age of 42 and having been a petrol head all my life I have driven some of the fastest road cars. This is faster. The only tin top I have driven faster was a Getrag Capri which was putting out about 550 BHP.

Read the reports of the others who have driven the S. This is not a car that has a narrow power band or anything funny like that. From about 2800rpm all the way round the clock this car is just unreal. As I have said Ralliart are not making claims. I was giving my estimates. Go to Dudley. Test the car. Then you will know what I am trying, obviously very badly, to convey. This is some thing very special indeed.
 
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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Hate to say I told you so folks but remember my 7th Heaven thread??!!
Up North, we would call this car a mister's portion ....
 
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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Oh, I forgot to say understeer my @rse! The 7eXtreme S corners better, and gives more choice and margin for error than my very well sorted Stage 1 Evo 6...
 
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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Then you will know what I am trying, obviously very badly, to convey

Simon ... you're not conveying it badly at all. My mouth's watering at the thought of making my next visit to the in-laws in Sedgeley (next to Dudley) even better by blagging a drive in this car.

However, no matter how experienced the driver, the human bum is the worst and most subjective performance meter ever invented, so I was just trying to find out where the 390-400lb/ft came from ... from a Ralliart claim or from your guess. If it really only has another 20bhp on top of the Extreme, it won't post much more dazzling performance figures (unless it's been significantly lightened, which I doubt).

Just because the car felt so much quicker to you, doesn't mean it's going to shatter existing performance records. Stick an average punter in a BMW 330d and they'll swear it's the quickest car they've ever been in because they (along with every human being on this earth) are fooled by uneven gobs of mid-range torque that make a car feel so much faster. That's why turbo-diesels (and, to a lesser extent, turbo-petrols) feel so quick .. it's CHANGING torque we detect the most (i.e. boost) rather than sustained torque. That's probably also why they're more fun too :)

How do I go about booking a test drive? Do I just call, or will Ralliart need evidence I'm actually interested in buying one?

Ian.
 
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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Droid

Yes, the human arse is a bad judge but testing the S back to back with my Extreme (known benchmark) over the same roads give you a pretty good idea. I suggest that you call Leon at Ralliart and mention that I suggested you spoke to him!

DaveG
I had already seen the article but now others can judge just what a heap of c**p it is. Evedence? Well, lots really. Firstly, looking at the times they do not stack up against other track tests from other mags. The closeness of some cars can only be put down to driver limitations rather than the cars. The times make no sense at all. Then read how they went about trying to get a full-on silly lap out of the S. It read like a manual for how to deliberately get understeer. Then they talk technical bull. They talk about how the size of the turbo needed to get the power of the S causes lag, even with the anti-lag. The turbo is a standard one and there is little more lag than a standard car. Anyway, using the anti lag on a track with the short ratio box should make it almost impossible to experience lag unless f****G your gear changes and changing at the wrong time.

Even when you read the rest of the article you can come up with things that show not only niavety but also general poor understanding of track driving. These guys need to start with a basic trackday car and some tuition before they progress to writing this s***T. I want people to tell me how the car can perform when I get good enough. A car that you can get in and drive a 10/10 straight away becomes very boring, very fast.
 
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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Regarding the ccc article the extreme used was obviously the model based on the rs hence no active yaw.All 4WD cars are prone to severe understeer the ayc on an evo is used not only as a stability aid but to also help you through corners by allowing the front of the car to tuck in more easily.Therefore i think if they had tested the normal extreme it would have done a little better,saying that it did put up good lap times compared to the others only beaten by those silly little flyweight two seaters (that megabusa is becoming more and more tempting by the day).Lets not forget that the rs model of the evo is designed mainly as a base car for rallying and drivers can then fit the options that they require,ayc may work well on the road/track but would not realy be desired on a typical rally stage as the driver would require more adjustability(sideways action)especialy on a loose surface.
 
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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Simon

What is a Getrag Capri ?

Did you ask Ralliart to give you torque and power figures for the Extreme S and they refused or didnt they know? If they are still developing it, I guess they will make it better. Maybe they didnt want to quote temporary figures. What is your opinion on this?
 
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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
After reading this article several times (with a hangover!), I am now not sure whether my knee jerk comments are entirely justified. It sounds as if the reporter might actually have felt understeer but amplified as a result of the way he was driving the car. In an Evo 6 (and Blade is more qualified than me to talk about this) understeer is definitely a problem - A problem which can be amplified by how you negotiate a corner - If you go in to a corner hard on the gas, through the apex, the car will indeed drift to the outside of the track. If you turn in off the gas, reach the apex and floor it, the car will not show it's understeering nature as much. During the time I had with J1WRC I can catagorically say that I tried to find fault with it and although found some things I would personally want to change (and I must stress that this is my personal choice and in no way criticism of the package), the handling was not one of them. I was arriving at corners MUCH faster than in TIRBO, turning in on and off the gas and the car would allow you to drive it on the throttle (something AYC is there to deter) without any noticable understeer and at the time it was shod with the same Yokohama rubber. The Yoko tyres do let go sooner than the S02s but it is predictable and for sideways hooligans, probably the better option but I can't understand why the tyres would be blamed for this. I also did a couple of sessions where I just stamped on the brakes at turn in and the car just started to slide in the direction you wanted it to beautifully I then hit the go button and it would 4 wheel drift on request leaving 4 big black lines on the deck.
To say I am confused with this article would be an understatement but do respect the jerno's view.
This has certainly stirred up some questions in my mind and I will attempt to investigate this as several people's opinion of J1WRC (some who are far better track drivers than I could ever dream of being) say one thing, and our friend who wrote the CCC article says another.
 
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