Evo X 2008 SST TCU versions - Page 3 - Mitsubishi Lancer Register Forum
 
 

Go Back   Mitsubishi Lancer Register Forum > Technical > Gearbox / Clutch / Transmission

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 13-03-2019, 12:53   #31
Sephiro
Senior User
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Paisley
Car: Evo X SST 330
Posts: 486
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad_Lad View Post
I am interested to know if the issue is indeed related to mapping, would a teach-in have any affect on this, as in momentarily prevent the error in the mapping from causing the issue I am experiencing.
To the best of my knowledge the throttle/torque demand tables from the ECU are fixed (there are a hot/cold interpolation tables too but they are also fixed) so I can't see why you would see different results before/after a teach in unless the temps were changing considerably in between.
Sephiro is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 14-03-2019, 08:17   #32
plip1953
Phil
 
plip1953's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: West Yorkshire
Car: Evo X 300 SST
My Car
Posts: 10,467
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiro View Post
Out of curiosity, why you would suspect the OEM map when it's been running the same map without an issue for the previous 16,000 miles?
Primarily because the OP reports that it runs perfectly in all Normal modes ie implying (to me) that the box itself isn't the issue.

And also, to an extent, since it is reported that after a teach-in it also runs fine for a time. And that this can be repeated multiple times. So, again, I can't see how the problem can be attributed to the hardware?

But I do accept your point about the previous 16k miles, although wasn't most of that while in different ownership?
__________________
Phil
plip1953 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-03-2019, 08:36   #33
plip1953
Phil
 
plip1953's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: West Yorkshire
Car: Evo X 300 SST
My Car
Posts: 10,467
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad_Lad View Post
I have contacted Ant this morning and he informs me that all of the TCU tables are OEM and that he works on getting the load calculation perfect so that the gearbox clamps correctly.
I'm not entirely sure what the bit in bold (my highlighting) actually means. Is that OEM as in exactly how they would be on an SST 300 or 330? Or simply that they are unchanged from when the car was originally supplied?

Also, I find it puzzling that your owner's manual suggests Millers oil. Did that apply only and specifically to all 440s? And on a point of detail, are you sure you have enough oil in the box? Because of course you need more than the usual OE quantity when using the Dodson heated sump.
__________________
Phil

Last edited by plip1953; 14-03-2019 at 08:39..
plip1953 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-03-2019, 10:41   #34
Bad_Lad
User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Leicestershire
Car: Evo X FQ-440 MR
My Car
Posts: 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by plip1953 View Post
I'm not entirely sure what the bit in bold (my highlighting) actually means. Is that OEM as in exactly how they would be on an SST 300 or 330? Or simply that they are unchanged from when the car was originally supplied?

Also, I find it puzzling that your owner's manual suggests Millers oil. Did that apply only and specifically to all 440s? And on a point of detail, are you sure you have enough oil in the box? Because of course you need more than the usual OE quantity when using the Dodson heated sump.
"all of the TCU tables are OEM"

I am unsure of the exact meaning of the above also!

I still feel I cannot rule the mapping out as a potential cause. I do not understand why the Gearbox runs perfectly in auto mode, what is the box doing differently in manual mode over auto mode? If the shift fork magnet was indeed loose, causing the issue, why is this not the case when using the box in auto mode, it works flawlessly in auto and within all three driving modes.

While in manual mode, the box doesn't exhibit the issue when within an odd Gear, ie 1st or 3rd, which unfortunately contradicts the above, I am unsure about the 5th and 6th gears as it is difficult to test on the public roads.

In regards to the shift fork magnet and Auto mode, it is possible the TCU Software is not referencing the locality of the Magnet as frequently or something, for it not exhibit the issue? If it is indeed a fault with the Shift fork magnet.

I really do not know what is going on, is it the Shift fork or mapping or even something else?

I have owned the Car for the past 7 months, the Car belonged to Mitsubishi before me. I have only covered 2000 miles in it. I do not want to get rid of the Car but also find it ridicules that a 45K Car with only 16000 miles on the clock effectively requires a new Gearbox.

Does anyone think it would be worth giving one of the earlier Software revisions a try? I did try this with PassThruCan earlier in the week but I kept getting the error "unnecessary reprogramming" is there something in particular I need to do, to allow me to go backwards with the TCU Software?

I have acquired a Mitsubishi MUT3 if there any parameters anyone can suggest logging to try and help diagnose the problem. One thing I did notice after doing some logging, the clutches are both seeing nearly 16 Bar of pressure at max clamp.

In regards to the Oil, please see below. The quantity I drained out, including the Oil Cooler and lines was roughly 8.1 litres, I measured the same quantity of new Oil and put that back in.
Attached Images
 

Last edited by Bad_Lad; 14-03-2019 at 13:25..
Bad_Lad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-03-2019, 13:23   #35
Sephiro
Senior User
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Paisley
Car: Evo X SST 330
Posts: 486
As I mentioned in one of my earlier posts their is supposed to be a difference between auto and manual mode in that manual is supposed to be more abrupt on changes as apparently when they set the car up they determined that drivers in manual mode prefer more feedback on a gear change. It could therefore be that this is the difference and is enough to trigger the problem you are having.

As for logging the SST box I know you can log it via Evoscan so I'm assuming you can do the same with MUT, however I don't have MUT myself to confirm this.

Has the problem been present during your entire ownership or has it developed/worsened since?

I don't think there was a specific TCU firmware used for the 440 so as far as I'm aware it uses the same version as the other SST boxes from that year. It should be fairly easy to check either way by viewing the TCU software part no with PassThruCAN though.
Sephiro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-03-2019, 13:56   #36
Bad_Lad
User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Leicestershire
Car: Evo X FQ-440 MR
My Car
Posts: 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiro View Post
As I mentioned in one of my earlier posts their is supposed to be a difference between auto and manual mode in that manual is supposed to be more abrupt on changes as apparently when they set the car up they determined that drivers in manual mode prefer more feedback on a gear change. It could therefore be that this is the difference and is enough to trigger the problem you are having.

As for logging the SST box I know you can log it via Evoscan so I'm assuming you can do the same with MUT, however I don't have MUT myself to confirm this.

Has the problem been present during your entire ownership or has it developed/worsened since?

I don't think there was a specific TCU firmware used for the 440 so as far as I'm aware it uses the same version as the other SST boxes from that year. It should be fairly easy to check either way by viewing the TCU software part no with PassThruCAN though.
I am unsure as to whether the issue was present when I purchased the Car in all honesty as I was unaware of some of the driving modes available to the driver initially, namely manual, Gear-stick to the side. Once I had notice/experienced the issue, it has been pretty much the same since.

Do you think it would be worth giving one of the earlier Software revisions a try, before going to the extent of taking the Gearbox out? I did try this with PassThruCan earlier in the week but I kept getting the error "unnecessary reprogramming" is there something in particular I need to do, to allow me to go backwards with the TCU Software revisions?

In regards to the MUT3, the operator is able to log more or less every valve seen/read by the TCU within the Gearbox. One thing I did notice after doing some logging, the clutches are both seeing nearly 16 Bar of pressure at max clamp.

Looking at the below, my TCU Software is the same as every other 2011 onward's SST out there.
Attached Images
 
Bad_Lad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-03-2019, 00:31   #37
Sephiro
Senior User
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Paisley
Car: Evo X SST 330
Posts: 486
Are you using PassThruCAN as part of MUTIII or standalone? Again I don't have MUTIII but I suspect it possibly tries to prevent you flashing the wrong version onto your TCU and as there is only one version of the firmware for the 2011+ SST box - 8631A9710A (8631B151.cff) - which is the one you have then it's not like there is even an alternative firmware for that box you can try.

The following TSB does suggest that you can override the automatic firmware selection and manually pick other firmware versions, however you may have an older version of MUTIII that doesn't support that:
https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/20...91782-0335.pdf

Failing that you should still be able to manually configure PassThruCAN with the relevant files and opening the utility directly without MUTIII as per the instructions in the resource below. Just be sure that you only have the correct files in the relevant folders as if you don't it either won't work or worse case could potentially brick the TCU.
https://drive.google.com/drive/folde...3ZXMFVKdV83V00

As far as the logging is concerned I'd be doing a run in auto matching the driving behaviour that causes the problem and then doing the same in manual mode. I'd then be looking for a clutch pressure spike in the manual plot when you liftoff that you aren't seeing in the auto plot and checking the other telemetry around the same time to see if any of that indicates a problem elsewhere.

If you only bought the car from Mitsu 7 months ago are they not willing to do anything?

Last edited by Sephiro; 15-03-2019 at 00:40..
Sephiro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-03-2019, 11:57   #38
plip1953
Phil
 
plip1953's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: West Yorkshire
Car: Evo X 300 SST
My Car
Posts: 10,467
I did a fair bit of logging with my Tactrix cable and Evoscan software.

What I would suggest is that you do much the same and look at the results to see anything odd between a comparison of values in Normal and in Sport/S-Sport when the problem(s) occur. At the very least I imagine there has to be some blip in hydraulic pressures being applied to the (even) clutch pack.


A few other observations:-


1. Although I can't honestly say I observed it first hand (mainly because I didn't look that hard), the difference in the way gearshifts occur in Normal and Sports modes has to the rate at which hydraulic pressure ramps up on the newly selected gear (and perhaps also the rate at which it is allowed to fall away on the previous gear). It all happens quite fast and even with 10 readings a second it may not be that easy to see.

2. The max hydraulic pressure of 16bar that you've observed is somewhat higher than I've witnessed on my own car (now sold) which peaked at just over 14bar. I don't believe that the 440 model was supplied with any mods (hardware or software) that specifically upped the max clamping pressures (although this is done routinely on cars such as the GTR in order to accommodate higher torque loadings on the standard gearbox when running really big power), and therefore I would suggest that it's more likely a sign of a relatively new gearbox in good order!


3. It is a bit mysterious why the problem only arises on the even gears. All I can think of that might explain this is that there is some kind of problem specifically with the even clutch pack or seals pertaining thereto. But it still leaves unexplained the fact that everything is just fine in Normal mode.
__________________
Phil
plip1953 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-03-2019, 10:28   #39
Bad_Lad
User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Leicestershire
Car: Evo X FQ-440 MR
My Car
Posts: 46
I have carried out some logging over the past few days as suggested above by Sephiro and it appears that there is indeed a spike in pressure each time the issue occurs when in Manual mode that isn't there in Auto mode. Could the issue be being caused by the Metatronic unit, either the hydraulic side or TCU side?
Bad_Lad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-03-2019, 13:33   #40
Sephiro
Senior User
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Paisley
Car: Evo X SST 330
Posts: 486
I would suspect it is most likely the hydraulic side as there's not really much from the TCU perspective to go wrong - you could always flash it to a different version of the TCU firmware and then back to the current version if you think it has potentially become corrupt, however mechanical failure is much more likely than flash failure in my experience.

I don't have a copy of the DCT470 manual here at work, however I seem to recall that several solenoids in the mechatronic unit are involved in throttling the pressure and directing the oil flow for a gear change. Some are simply on/off solenoids whereas at least one of the pressure solenoids is variable and could potentially be performing outside of spec in the manual shifting scenario's resulting in momentary pressure spike.
Sephiro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-03-2019, 14:09   #41
stu8
Senior User
 
stu8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Southport
Car: Evo V - geekmapped.com
My Car
Posts: 21,659
outside the box, and probably a mile off, but isnt there something about sst clutches playing up if overboost, or an air leak, or something along those lines, is detected?

Stu
__________________
CPP Motor Developments - CPP MLR page - CPP Facebook
RG Motorsport - www.rgmotorsport.co.uk

Evo 4-6 left over parts for sale
stu8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-03-2019, 17:23   #42
Sephiro
Senior User
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Paisley
Car: Evo X SST 330
Posts: 486
With overboost it reduces clutch pressure to disengage the clutches so that would be the opposite of the pressure spike he is seeing here. Similarly if it was seals leaking then again I'd expect to be seeing clutch slip rather harsh clutch engagement on a downshift.

In regards to the auto/manual difference I can only assume that in auto mode the box is shifting within a fixed range of rpm's and this happens to coincide with the range that the pressure solenoid is moving freely. When in manual mode the shift rpms will be different which affects the pressure being generated by the oil pump in the clutch basket which, in combination with the fact that the TCU tries to make manual shifts more pronounced, means that the pressure solenoid is now operating in a different range where it's potentially sticking. The TCU is also more likely to be caught out in manual mode if you trigger a downshift when it was expecting an upshift meaning the pressure solenoid doing even more work.

Last edited by Sephiro; 27-03-2019 at 20:30..
Sephiro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-03-2019, 17:53   #43
5teve
Senior User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: West Sussex
Car: Evo X
My Car
Posts: 178
I have the dodson clubman pack in my car (same pack as the 440 ? ) & I will say it's pretty harsh in SS manual if you aren't up in the revs hooning it. My cars running 400/460. Normal & sport aren't nearly as bad to use just pootling about.
__________________
Evo x sst 461/401- Tuned @ Indigo-gt
5teve is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-03-2019, 21:01   #44
keithmac
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Car: Mk2 Golf Gti 16v
Posts: 731
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad_Lad View Post
Thank you for taking the time to read and reply to my post!

My Car has only covered 16,000 miles and Iíve been experiencing some strange, what I can only describe as jerking and from the transmission, the transmission/Car will jerk/jolt momentarily. This is sometimes minimal, with only a slight jolt being felt inside the Car, other times being an extremely violent jolt, equivalent to jabbing the brake pedal for a second. It doesn't happen when shifting and only under the below conditions, the effect can be extremely harsh at times.

My observations are that it doesn't do it at all in Auto (All Three Modes) only Manual and most noticeable in S-Sport. I have also noticed that it is mainly on overrun/maintaining speed, for example when following slow moving traffic and when lightly tipping in and out of the throttle at lower speeds/rpm, potentially when the transmission is preparing a lower gear, I have also noticed it will only do it when within an even Gear, 2nd or 4th, I would imagine 6th also but difficult to test. It only presents the issue when everything is up to temperature and been running for some time.

I have PassThruCan and Performing a teach-in resolves the issue for a short while although it soon starts doing it again after a couple of trips.

The reason I mentioned trying the earlier Software as per my previous post, is that it almost seems like a software issue? As it doesnít do it at all in auto mode as mentioned above and also the fact that a teach-in helps momentarily. Also, the fact that it doesnít do it at all until you have been driving around for a while and everything is hot/up to temperature, makes me think it could possible be related to the Oil. My Mitsubishi Service/Maintenance book recommends using Millermatic ATF DCT-DSG for my Car, which I find quite surprising in all honesty. The Oil is only £42 for 5 litres compared with £30-37 per litre for Diaqueen SSTF-1. Do you think it would be worth trying the SSTF-1 Oil that is recommended for every other TC-SST Evo X?

There havenít been any error codes at all from the TCU/transmission and everything else is completely normal.

Any help/suggestions are greatly appreciated!
I have a Ford Powershift 6DCT450 (very similar to Evo 6dct470) and ours started similar behaviour in even gears.

Got progressively worse to the point I removed the Mechatronic unit and cleaned it all out (after multiple oil flush attempts).

Worked well for 450miles then same fault appeared..

Traced mine to Clutch Shift Modulation Solenoid 1 intermittent failure (bit the bullet and ordered a new Mechatronic unit).

There's two solenoids to control the Even clutch and two solenoids to control the Odd clutch.

I have seen a graph of a failing solenoid and instead of an even curve it is "stepped", would be like driving in a manual car with a learner driver with poor clutch control.

Have a look at "Maktrans", they say the clutch solenoids are a comon failure and even they can only recondition 50% of them.

I hope yours is not related to the solenoids, just relaying what I've experienced.
__________________
GTO TT, Mk2 Golf 16vG60.
keithmac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-05-2019, 14:51   #45
Bad_Lad
User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Leicestershire
Car: Evo X FQ-440 MR
My Car
Posts: 46
For all involved or for those that are interested at least, this turned out to be caused by a fault with the hydraulic side of the Mechatronic unit, replaced and the issue is no longer present.
Bad_Lad is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Bad_Lad For This Useful Post:
plip1953 (28-05-2019), Sephiro (02-06-2019), stu8 (03-06-2019), zenwahwong56 (31-05-2019)
Mitsubishi Lancer Register
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 19:43.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.