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Old 05-12-2001, 21:51   #1
dutchEVO6
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Help wanted,front diff failure?

After reading the post from HH6 about hi problems with his front LSD diff i think i have the same problem.I have the same symptons.I have an RS2 version from october 1999.
When i bought the car(a few months back) nothing was wrong as far as i could tell ,but when i drove away from the approval(imported car) I heard the sound from the right front side for the first time.
On approval the car gets shaken quit alot with a pneumatic device to test any clearance in suspensionparts,i guess it shook the car a little bit too harsh?
I had the car checked at the only adress we have here in Holland for EVO's and they also said the diff was the problem.Has anybody done this repair himself?I want to know if I can just take out the transferbox without the gearbox?
Also the gearbox was filled with the same oil as used in the diff, the LSD oil.Someone told me the gearbox and frontdiff have a connection where oil goes through,is that true?
I want to do the repair myself ,have 20 years experience with cars on a hobby base ,but have not worked on an EVO before.
Is there any info availble on the net for some reading in advance, so I know a little what to expect when performing the repair.
Any info is appreciated.
PS for those of you who have not read the info from HH6, when turning full lock or almost full lock ,the car makes a clunking noise.Feels like the driveshaft,but it is not regular enough to be a worn DS and also it only occurs on low speeds and with no throttle ,so when the car freewheels on low speed with lots of steering to the right the sound comes,I can feel it in the steeringwheel.
Bye chris
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Old 06-12-2001, 23:34   #2
Heave Ho Six
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Re:Help wanted,front diff failure?

Chris,
It could also possibly be a suspension problem (top mount or worn bush somewhere). I narrowed it down to a definite diff problem by:
stopping the car on full lock just when it was making the noise and then rocking it back and forth while feeling the suspension components (strut, roll bar etc.), the steering rack and track rod end and finally the driveshaft. The driveshaft was the only place where you could definitely feel the clunk.
as above (rocking the car) but this time listening from above the car with the bonnet up and then from underneath. In my case the noise was definitely coming from the transfer box area and not the suspension or gearbox (centre diff).

If it is the transfer box then it should be a fairly easy repair although I must admit, I am like you and wouldn't have attempted it myself. I will email you the full details of how to repair it thanks to a contact I had who put me in the picture as to the LSD problem.
As you probably know the problem basically is that the bolts that secure the two halves of the LSD together either come loose or break eventually causing the 'clunk'. The repair is just to extract all the old bolts and replace them with high tensile items. I do know that some rally prep garages actually 'tack' weld the heads of the bolts to stop them possibly coming loose in the future.
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Old 07-12-2001, 09:00   #3
Ryan
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Re:Help wanted,front diff failure?

If you havenít already got them a set of Workshop Manuals might help you although I've no idea if they cover changing the diff as I've never needed to look it up.

You can get them from many places, I got mine from co-ord

Let us know how you get on

R
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Old 07-12-2001, 11:36   #4
Heave Ho Six
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Re:Help wanted,front diff failure?

Ryan,
There is very little...well nothing on how to strip the transfer box in the manuals and hence that is why it took my garage 3 days to sort it out (including getting Ralliart tech dept involved) when it was only really a mornings job. I even gave them the email from my contact detailing how to repair it before dropping my car off but obviously they didn't believe me hence the 3 days. Still they were a bit sheepish when it came to the bill and only charged me for half a days work .
All the manual does detail is how to remove the transfer box and replace the oil seals.
Quite right though the manuals are worth every penny of the £30 I paid for them second hand
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Old 08-12-2001, 19:01   #5
dutchEVO6
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Re:Help wanted,front diff failure?

Many thx for the info I have received so far.!
I still have some things I must know before i start with the repair,HH6 i emailed you about it.
I will let you guys know how things went.I will do it together with a qualified mechanic and will do it coming saturday,untill then I will drive nice and easy with the car.
But I want to know the most important details on the repair ,so we do not loose time when the car is in the garage.I am looking forward on doiing the repair,and hope the diff still can be safed.
I'll be back!!
Bye chris
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Old 10-12-2001, 11:39   #6
oli goon
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Re:Help wanted,front diff failure?

hh6, the workshop manuals are very sketchy when it comes to the front diff and transfer box. Seems very poor. however as you say there's some good stuff in there. i still can't understand how the drive train works in this area. Why is the front diff in the transfer box but the centre diff at the back of the gearbox? Why does the workshop manual show an open diff for the centre when all the literature says that its a viscous lsd? help.... before i suffer brain meltdown.

Dutch, Let us know how you get on with this.
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Old 10-12-2001, 14:23   #7
dutchEVO6
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Re:Help wanted,front diff failure?

Oilgoon,
I also have checked the manual.I do not even know for sure where the centre diff is meant for.I believe it is to compensate any differences between rear and front power output.
So the centre diff must be inside the transferbox too ,which is located at the back of the gearbox,it must be between outgoiing shaft from the front diff and the rear one.But if i look at the drawing i see it at the backside of the gearbox next to the frontdiff,the output shaft from the gearbox starts at the centre diff and ends at the frontdiff.I also need some help to understand this ,any experts around?
If i have the transferbox taken out ,what diff is inside this,is this the centre diff?
If you look at the drawing there are two diffs in one line on one shaft.Is the left diff not the front one?
Cause driveshaft from left side enters the transferbox there.The more I look at the drawing, the more confused I get! HELP!!!!!
bye chris
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Old 10-12-2001, 18:50   #8
Splodge
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Re:Help wanted,front diff failure?

The center diff is sealed in the Gearbox casing, the Front diff is within the transfer box which is in between the rightside driveshaft, the rear drive shaft, and the side of the gearbox. Not to difficult to get out, if car up on ramps, best to have two people to do it as transfer box is heavy, when it finaly comes away from gearbox. Youll need a 8mm slide hammer to pull the short half shaft out, to let the case come away from the gearbox casing. Have fun getting oilly. This is a regular problem/ fault with Evos, and lots of us have suffered from internal bolts comming loose, if you carry on driving on it, you get a noise when wheels on full lock, untill one day bang, you need a full refurb, if you take out the crownwheel and pinion, expensive at £800 to fix!
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Old 11-12-2001, 00:10   #9
dutchEVO6
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Re:Help wanted,front diff failure?

Splodge,
I now understand where the diffs are located.
The part with the slidehammer is no prob too.
A friend of mine ownes a garage and one of his employees,a qualified mechanic ,will help me.So I will have all the equipment and help I need .I only want to buy the new bolts before i do the repair ,to be sure i have them and they will not say ,not in stock when i come there with the old ones.
I was told countersunk M8 20 MM long, high tensile like 12.9, can you confirm this?
Also did you spotweld them when they were placed or just secured them with Loctite?
And is the total 4 bolts?
Bye chris
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Old 11-12-2001, 11:25   #10
oli goon
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Re:Help wanted,front diff failure?

Dutch,

as you say it's clear where the diffs are located and the only question is how it works. The x-section in the manual does not make it clear.

The crux of the problem is this:-
how can the centre diff (the one in the back of the gearbox) split the torque between front and rear when it appears to be between the near side front wheel and the shaft into the transfer box.
likewise how can the front diff (the one in the transfer box) split the torque between the front wheels when it appears to be between the centre diff output and the prop shaft.

Is it possible that this is a bit of Japlish and that the diff in the gearbox is actually the front one, whilst the one in the transfer box is the centre diff?

Confused, you bet I am.
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Old 11-12-2001, 23:22   #11
Heave Ho Six
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Re:Help wanted,front diff failure?

No its not Japlish, the centre diff is definitely in the gearbox and the front diff is in the transfer box.
The trouble with the cross section is you can't really see the shaft within shaft within shaft arrangement for transferring the drives between the centre diff, front dif and the propshaft. One output from the centre diff passes to the front diff and the other to the case (around the case?) around the front diff which in turn transfers it to the propshaft using the bevel gear. An output shaft passes through the whole lot from the front diff to the LH driveshaft (this is the one you need the slidehammer to remove).
I have just worked it out myself and it is a right old head twister! (still not 100% but I think I have cracked it).
I will try and knock up a diagram to explain it and that will at least confirm whether I am right or not!
If you look at the way the centre diff is made up then it helps to explain it (pg 22B-46).
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Old 12-12-2001, 09:30   #12
oli goon
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Re:Help wanted,front diff failure?

hh6, top info as always. I'll have a look at my book tonight when i get home. I'll even try to do it before i have a drink so my brain is at peak power....

A diagram would be great as this question seems to come up quite alot.
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Old 12-12-2001, 09:54   #13
dutchEVO6
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Re:Help wanted,front diff failure?

I will also make some pics of the repair so other people can see what bolts are coming loose.
Bye chris
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Old 12-12-2001, 14:02   #14
Heave Ho Six
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Re:Help wanted,front diff failure?

Chris,
Just found the joints after looking in my little boys book of universal joints and the Evo tech manual .

BJ actually stands for Birfield Joint and TJ stands for Tripode (plunge) Joint.
Its the two different types of CV joints used on the driveshafts which luckily also ties up with which ends they are at (TJ near the Transmission and BJ near the Bearing).

Evo 4 GSR uses a Double-offset Joint (DOJ) instead of the Tripode Joint (TJ). Now that would have been confusing.

Have a look at page 2-3 of the E6 Tech manual it's there in black and white.

By the way how much has my sad rating improved now

Let me know the exact details of the bolts if its not what I told you and I will add it to my FAQ's, a piccy of the fault would be excellent too!

Evoboy,
2 - nil, 2 -nil, you're not singing anymore, youuuuu'reeee not singing anyyymore!
(I think I might regret that!)
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Old 12-12-2001, 17:36   #15
GSRed
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Re:Help wanted,front diff failure?

And here comes THE AMAZING TECHNICOLOUR diagram!!
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