Kw clubsport for Evo 6,info needed - Page 2 - Mitsubishi Lancer Register Forum
 
 

Go Back   Mitsubishi Lancer Register Forum > Technical > Suspension / Handling

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 06-07-2020, 15:25   #16
Goginawa
Zero Fighter
 
Goginawa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: London
Car: EVO IX FQ 320
My Car
Posts: 12,736
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clivew View Post
Funnily enough, I've just sent this info to someone else looking to fit KW Clubsport to their Evo 6;

100/80 would be a good starting point, firm, but not hard by all means. The damping plays a much bigger role in perceived ride quality than spring rates. If you found you wanted more rearward balance, you could change the rear springs easy enough. (Takes around 30 mins all in) Taking into account the Evo motion ratio, 100N/mm front spring rate equates to a 92N/mm wheel rate and a suspension frequency of 2.5Hz. 80N/mm rear spring rate equates to a 53N/mm wheel rate and a suspension frequency of 2.35Hz. That's assuming a total vehicle weight of 1350kg, and a 60/40% weight distribution. 2.5Hz is about the max you want for a non aero race car. These figures are approx as I don't know your exact vehicle weight and unsprung weight on each corner. Unsprung weight is the weight of the wheel, tyre, knuckle assy, suspension and brakes. With an uprated rear anti-roll bar, balance should be pretty neutral, or with both standard or uprated anti-roll bars fitted, a 90N/mm rear spring would give a nice balance.

Clive, would you actually recommend having uprated anti-roll bar having suspension like Clubsports, Ohlins, Nitron 2 /3 way etc.
thanks



edited
I guess im trying to understand how beneficial is to have the anti roll bar once you have this sort of suspension or is anti roll bar more suitable for oem or lower budgeted suspension
__________________
MAPPED BY ORACLE
evoless ,now something on a different Note
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by Goginawa; 06-07-2020 at 15:27..
Goginawa is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 06-07-2020, 16:00   #17
madmatt
Senior User
 
madmatt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 725
Antiroll bar is a cheap and easy way to balance understeer and oversteer, even on oem suspension.
madmatt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2020, 17:48   #18
Clivew
Transmission Dynamics
 
Clivew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Bedford
Car: Highly Modded E6 T04Z/2.2ltr, Tesla Model 3 Performance, Renaultsport Megane RS250 Cup.
My Car
Posts: 7,796
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goginawa View Post
Clive, would you actually recommend having uprated anti-roll bar having suspension like Clubsports, Ohlins, Nitron 2 /3 way etc.
thanks



edited
I guess im trying to understand how beneficial is to have the anti roll bar once you have this sort of suspension or is anti roll bar more suitable for oem or lower budgeted suspension
I don't blanket recommend/don't recommend uprated anti-roll bars because it all depends on individual car/requirement/usage/suspension set-up.

It's totally on a case by case basis, same as what spring rates to run.

An uprated anti-roll bar adds to the spring rate (in a corner), but due to being tied across the axle, also reduces roll (obvious) and increases steering response. But, it can also reduce grip because it reduces droop and will decrease ride comfort (dependent on road surface). So, it depends on the reason why you want to fit one. On a full on track car, it most probably will help and will allow a quick and easy adjustment of balance, but on a pure road car, IMO, not needed unless you're always driving absolutely on the limit on very smooth roads.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


'There is no worse bitterness than to reach the end of your life and realise you have not lived'
Clivew is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Clivew For This Useful Post:
Goginawa (06-07-2020), sfg (19-07-2020)
Old 06-07-2020, 19:34   #19
plip1953
Phil
 
plip1953's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: West Yorkshire
Car: Evo X RS
My Car
Posts: 10,979
I'm not passing judgement on whether it's a particularly good idea or not, but one of the most success Evo TA cars of recent times doesn't have a front arb at all. And at least one other high end Evo followed suit and was very quick too.
__________________
Phil
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by plip1953; 06-07-2020 at 19:49..
plip1953 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2020, 21:05   #20
Goginawa
Zero Fighter
 
Goginawa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: London
Car: EVO IX FQ 320
My Car
Posts: 12,736
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clivew View Post
I don't blanket recommend/don't recommend uprated anti-roll bars because it all depends on individual car/requirement/usage/suspension set-up.

It's totally on a case by case basis, same as what spring rates to run.

An uprated anti-roll bar adds to the spring rate (in a corner), but due to being tied across the axle, also reduces roll (obvious) and increases steering response. But, it can also reduce grip because it reduces droop and will decrease ride comfort (dependent on road surface). So, it depends on the reason why you want to fit one. On a full on track car, it most probably will help and will allow a quick and easy adjustment of balance, but on a pure road car, IMO, not needed unless you're always driving absolutely on the limit on very smooth roads.
great! thats something what I thought it may be the case. Many thanks
__________________
MAPPED BY ORACLE
evoless ,now something on a different Note
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Goginawa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2020, 06:57   #21
madmatt
Senior User
 
madmatt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 725
Quote:
Originally Posted by plip1953 View Post
I'm not passing judgement on whether it's a particularly good idea or not, but one of the most success Evo TA cars of recent times doesn't have a front arb at all. And at least one other high end Evo followed suit and was very quick too.
Doesn't mean one thing works for this car that it won't for another. Not having antiroll bar will increase the amount of mechanical grip but that also means your springs will be quite hard in order to keep a relatively stable car in corners.

In rallying/rallycross you'll always find cars with stiff roll bars on tarmac, low stiffness on gravel, and sometimes no antiroll bar (especially in rallycross).

Ultimately it all comes down to how the car is built (chassis stiffness, suspension, tyres, weight distribution, AERO, etc.). It can vary a lot, not even mentioning driver preference hehe.

I've decided to go for 2.2/2.3Hz frequency, haven't tested the car yet, I assume it will be quite hard, tbh I should have gone for 2-2.1 for mountain roads, but I'm happy to know if others have an opinion on driving a car at a known ride frequency.
madmatt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2020, 09:06   #22
4g638
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
My Car
Posts: 5,942
-There are certain combinations of parts and settings, that will work the same on every car, as long as important factors and elements remain the same. So one suspension formula for an Evo 8, can work the same on another Evo 8, even if its a dedicated track car.


-Most people make these two common mistakes. They change parts of a suspension without taking into consideration the relation of these parts to each other and to the rest of the parts of, or the suspension of a car and the car as a whole. In other words they isolate, and even if they do change all the needed parts, most cases they do not, for what they wish to achieve, these parts tend not to co-operate with each other as efficiently as they should at a best case scenario, or they totally screw things up big time.

-Secondly suspension changes should always be in accordance to the drivetrain, especially the diff type and setup, which in most cases it is a fact people do not take into consideration.



-Spring rates should be in accordance to more than one factor, most have been mentioned in this thread, one very important being the relation to the dumping curve of the strut whether it is adjustable or not.


-Although this is a thread about KWs, I see that the O.P got his answer, so I will add my opinion on things in general.


-Most people do not go by hertz, but by kg/mm, I will keep things more simple.


-Firstly the oem suspension can go a long way, more than people think, with a few changes.



-For a daily driven road car on stockish power, a set of quality lowering springs is enough. Experimenting on this, my setup sits as is at the 1000hp mark, and it runs on stock b6 struts. Car drives like a ****ing train. Of course, to be able to track and compete with the car I do need a 4 or 5 way coilover system.


-One can take it a step further, and add a rear medium stiffness and diameter, adjustable rear antiroll, The front anti-roll works quite well as is, even for dedicated track cars.

-Best oem strut to use is the bilstein b6, different dumping curve than the kayaba, than the b5 also, and best springs rates for a combination of ****ed up road surface, low grip, lots of pot holes, speed bumps,uneven surface, other anomalies, with the occasional very smooth road surface is a combo of 4.5kg/mm front and 5.8kg/mm rear. One can go up to 5.5/6.5 if he drives mostly on smooth surfaces. The aftermarket adjust. anti-roll will help sufficently during cornering combined with a set of grippy tires.The setting on it will vary according to the amount of lateral force one needs to put on the tire or take away from it, in accordance to road surface, actual sprung/un-sprung mass and the adhension and hysterisis vs slide angle (grip properties) of the tire. Remember that the anti-roll adds to the spring rate effect. As these are mild spring rates , they are suitable for cars of weight of 1200-1450kg and no added downforce coefficient. Camber, castor, toe, settings always again accordingly.



Track wise, that's a totally different, customized job that depends on a lot of factors and as I said same recipe can work on two different cars if certain crucial factors remain the same.









Marios
__________________
" Go tell the Spartans,passerby,that here by Spartan law we lie. " Leonidas I son of Anaxandritas II and king of Sparta,really proud to be his descendant!

Last edited by 4g638; 07-07-2020 at 09:17.. Reason: typo
4g638 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to 4g638 For This Useful Post:
sfg (19-07-2020)
Old 07-07-2020, 09:13   #23
plip1953
Phil
 
plip1953's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: West Yorkshire
Car: Evo X RS
My Car
Posts: 10,979
Quote:
Originally Posted by madmatt View Post
Doesn't mean one thing works for this car that it won't for another. Not having antiroll bar will increase the amount of mechanical grip but that also means your springs will be quite hard in order to keep a relatively stable car in corners.

In rallying/rallycross you'll always find cars with stiff roll bars on tarmac, low stiffness on gravel, and sometimes no antiroll bar (especially in rallycross).

Ultimately it all comes down to how the car is built (chassis stiffness, suspension, tyres, weight distribution, AERO, etc.). It can vary a lot, not even mentioning driver preference hehe.

I've decided to go for 2.2/2.3Hz frequency, haven't tested the car yet, I assume it will be quite hard, tbh I should have gone for 2-2.1 for mountain roads, but I'm happy to know if others have an opinion on driving a car at a known ride frequency.
Fully accepted, although in terms of front arbs I've rarely if ever heard people on here actively promote the no front arb route, and yet there is living proof that it can produce good lap times.

On my TA car we ran both uprated arbs and high spring rates and that seemed to do ok too.

So I guess my main question would be something also the lines of .... if you decide that a frequency of, say, 2.5 is where you have decided you want to be, what would then be your choice of arb? Or does the arb stiffness effectively alter the frequency - in which case I guess you balance arb stiffness with higher or lower spring rates?
__________________
Phil
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
plip1953 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2020, 18:26   #24
Phil2333
Tarmac Tyre Shredder
 
Phil2333's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: North west.
Car: Evo 6, Forged 2ltr 8MR engine...405/400
My Car
Posts: 14,467
Thanks very much for all the replies guys!

Its down to 2 ....KW clubsports or nitron R1 (both with stiffer spring upgrade)

As for spec/weights of my car.... 1358kg weighed (wet)

Perrin 24mm rear arb..standard front
Strut braces front and rear
Rs diff
-2 neg camber front
-1.5 neg rear
0 toe
Full SD Cage
Alcons all round
Either r888r...or kumho/dunlop rally slicks for track

It oversteers more than understeers on track which i like...usually get told off or sent home for drifting everywhere....and i rather have a stiffer car than spend 2/3/4 grand and it be soft and wallowy.

Both kw and nitron come out at roughly the same price,so its one or the other.
__________________
My Evo 6 resto thread...


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Phil2333 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Phil2333 For This Useful Post:
madmatt (08-07-2020), Trev-the-Rev (07-07-2020)
Old 07-07-2020, 18:43   #25
plip1953
Phil
 
plip1953's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: West Yorkshire
Car: Evo X RS
My Car
Posts: 10,979
Go with the Nitrons and see what you think of them. And if you don't like them, at least the rest of up will be reassured we made the right decision ;-)
__________________
Phil
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
plip1953 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2020, 18:44   #26
Phil2333
Tarmac Tyre Shredder
 
Phil2333's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: North west.
Car: Evo 6, Forged 2ltr 8MR engine...405/400
My Car
Posts: 14,467
Quote:
Originally Posted by plip1953 View Post
Go with the Nitrons and see what you think of them. And if you don't like them, at least the rest of up will be reassured we made the right decision ;-)
..why?....dont you like them?...please tell.
__________________
My Evo 6 resto thread...


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Phil2333 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2020, 10:29   #27
plip1953
Phil
 
plip1953's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: West Yorkshire
Car: Evo X RS
My Car
Posts: 10,979
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil2333 View Post
..why?....dont you like them?...please tell.
No, nothing like that. I had the Nitron 3-ways on my TA car from 2012 and they served us very well indeed. But I've no practical experience of the R1 model.

KW are a much bigger outfit than Nitron and offer a huge range of suspension unit options right across the price spectrum. They also have the potential advantage of being one of only a very small number of companies across the world with their own 7 post suspension simulator rig. I've visited the factory in Germany and seen the 7 post rig in operation as well as their manufacturing facility, and it's all very impressive. And notwithstanding that they are a German company, their UK based outfit are able to perform on-site servicing and repairs of Clubsport units (of which I have personal experience).

If Nitron are offering a unit that's been developed specifically for the 6 (rather than an adapted 7,8,9 unit), it would give me some comfort that it should work pretty well, but you'll not actually find that out until you've tried them for yourself.
__________________
Phil
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
plip1953 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2020, 18:59   #28
Arronevo8
Senior User
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: N/ireland ballykelly
Car: Std vi imported january 12 mint and very nice in white
My Car
Posts: 3,918
I am very into suspension as my mountain bike has £1800 off suspension and re-valved and its so good. The Evo has had the KW on it and I took ages to set it and its so good and made the car a B road flyer. It works so well on off cambers and pot holes and it works better the faster its pushed and the Yokohama tyres so well and where as it used to slide on the same roads the damping just finds grip, I find the damping adjustments clicks very close so great for fine tuning and the top mounts are easy to adjust.
Arronevo8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2020, 22:52   #29
4g638
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
My Car
Posts: 5,942
-Having an adjustable valving coilover system is always better than a fixed valving with no adjustability whatsoever one such is the oem suspension. But for a stockish power evo, that daily drives, what I said above works also really well.

-For example on my fp black setup, on the same suspension, the car did not slide at all, on the new engine/turbo setup of upgraded power, on the same roads, and triple 8s, the car does slide on a straight power run acceleration but nothing major though and it does go like a train around bents, although with a 4-5 way aftermarket coilover system, I would most definitely be able to push it more. One gets to see the limits of oem suspension even when further optimized.







Marios
__________________
" Go tell the Spartans,passerby,that here by Spartan law we lie. " Leonidas I son of Anaxandritas II and king of Sparta,really proud to be his descendant!

Last edited by 4g638; 08-07-2020 at 23:22.. Reason: typo/added comment
4g638 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-07-2020, 20:15   #30
TimC
Senior User
 
TimC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Lancashire
Car: Evo IX GT
My Car
Posts: 1,744
You made a decision yet Phil?
__________________
Tim
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
TimC is offline   Reply With Quote
Mitsubishi Lancer Register
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 07:17.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.