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Old 01-04-2019, 20:16   #16
ND4SPD
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Originally Posted by tsapi View Post
Good morning.

I am a happy owner of an evo 9, using it every day but also approx every two months on a track. My brake setup is the stock one with ferrodo ds2500 pads. I am happy with the everyday performance, but not so happy on the track, where they occasionally overheat. As the disks and the pads need replacement, I am thinking of buying something different than oem parts (maybe two part disks?) and maybe other pads than ds 2500. Please keep in mind that I want to keep the stock caliper and the stock 17" wheels. I have no problems with squeeks and noises during braking.

Thanks a lot for any input / suggestions!
Pads - Carbotech XP10, front and rear

Discs - front, if you want 2 piece discs then DBA 5000 T3, if you want one piece disc (cheaper option), then DBA 4000 T3, rear - DBA 4000 T3

Brake fluid - Motul RBF660

Brake lines - Hel

Brake cooling ducts/guides - OEM - MZ555004EX, or you can buy some aftermarket ones

Then you need some good tyres, Yokohama Advan Neova AD08R are good both for street and occasional track use... Better tyres for track use - Dunlop Direzza 03G...

Last edited by ND4SPD; 01-04-2019 at 20:21..
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Old 03-04-2019, 07:40   #17
plip1953
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I'm surprised by the remarks of a couple of respected and longstanding MLR Members to the effect that all you need is good disks and pads, and perhaps a bit of brake cooling, and then you'll be good to go.


All of them will help, but let me ask you a particular question - are your existing Brembos now heavily discoloured ie more a brown colour than red? If so, then cooling. more specifically the lack of it, is your main issue. Changing calipers to something like APs is the probably the most certain way of dealing with the issue, but not cheap, and even then you may need to consider some additional brake cooling, as well as ensuring you have good discs and pads.


Just one more thing about brake cooling - it's been said already, but disc cooling requires air to enter the centre of the inside part of the disc and flow through the vanes and exit at the edges of the disc. OE "dust shields" actually do a pretty good job of blocking this flow and so you may want to consider removing them. Most I've seen are so corroded anyway that they can be given a bit of a waggle and will break off quite easily!. You certainly don't need to split the hub and bearing to release them completely, but even if you were to remove them completely I suspect you might be advised to add a shim plate between hub and bearing in order to maintain clearances.


Simply removing the dust shields might be all you need to do, but the next step would be to add positive additional cool airflow into the area of the inside centre of the disc. Strategically routed flexy hose ducting provides one method, but what's also proved to be effective is relatively simple air deflectors of the kind that NR Autosport used to supply. They bolt very simply to the front bottom suspension arms (where the drop links locate). You might be lucky and find someone selling a set (Barbour on here has a set that I don't think he uses any longer) or you might consider the offering in the link below that I happened across just now.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/131931327980

Finally, just bear in mind that it is possible to over cool your brakes, which is not good, rather like running your engine too cool. Adding caliper temp indicators can help monitor these temps (see https://www.exquisusa.com/blog/2017/...rature-sticker ), and you can also measure rotor temperature using special paint applied to the outer edges.
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Old 03-04-2019, 17:29   #18
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I'm surprised by the remarks of a couple of respected and longstanding MLR Members to the effect that all you need is good disks and pads, and perhaps a bit of brake cooling, and then you'll be good to go.
OEM Brembo calipers with good pads, discs, brake lines, brake fluid and optionally brake cooling ducts are good for 99% of usage, especially for everyday performance with occasional track use...

Fun fact, some well known time attack cars that don't have unlimited budget use OEM Brembo calipers...

Regarding discoloration, let's see the color on some red Alcon, AP Racing, etc., calipers after 10+ years of abusement with some racing pads and without any refurbishment...

Last edited by ND4SPD; 03-04-2019 at 17:40..
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Old 04-04-2019, 08:18   #19
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Originally Posted by ND4SPD View Post
OEM Brembo calipers with good pads, discs, brake lines, brake fluid and optionally brake cooling ducts are good for 99% of usage, especially for everyday performance with occasional track use...
So why is it that a large proportion of regular Evo trackgoers have switched to alternative calipers?

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Originally Posted by ND4SPD View Post
Fun fact, some well known time attack cars that don't have unlimited budget use OEM Brembo calipers....
Name a few? I can't think of any, at least none that run serious power cars and/pr produce competitive times. Maybe different in sprinting.

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Regarding discoloration, let's see the color on some red Alcon, AP Racing, etc., calipers after 10+ years of abusement with some racing pads and without any refurbishment...
Show me some that have discoloured. The bright yellow paint on the PF calipers fitted to my old TA car were fitted in 2012 and are still looking the same as when new. And I have red APs on my X RS that have seen quite a lot of track action over 10 years and they are still nice and bright.
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Old 04-04-2019, 11:46   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ND4SPD View Post
OEM Brembo calipers with good pads, discs, brake lines, brake fluid and optionally brake cooling ducts are good for 99% of usage, especially for everyday performance with occasional track use...

Fun fact, some well known time attack cars that don't have unlimited budget use OEM Brembo calipers...

Regarding discoloration, let's see the color on some red Alcon, AP Racing, etc., calipers after 10+ years of abusement with some racing pads and without any refurbishment...
Were you using brembos here?

https://www.lancerregister.com/showthread.php?t=520027

To the OP: So far the best advice on here is from plip. Ditch the front brembos.
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Old 04-04-2019, 12:41   #21
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I'll vouch for the XP8's on DBA 2 piece disks and Brembo calipers. Brilliant from cold, good bite and feel
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Old 04-04-2019, 12:52   #22
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I'll vouch for the XP8's on DBA 2 piece disks and Brembo calipers. Brilliant from cold, good bite and feel
Perfect for sprinting maybe.....
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Old 04-04-2019, 13:25   #23
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All depends how hard you are on the car really, you think Brembos are not upto the job try doing regualr trackdays in an old Evo2 with its tiny 275mm discs and 2 pot calipers then you know what bad/hot brakes are

The Brembo calipers while not the best for regular track use will handle a fair amount of abuse if in good working order and using suitable pads and fluid, extra cooling for track as mentioned and even those bottom arm flaps to get the air up into wheel/disc area will help, keeping sessions short 10-15mins max and allowing a couple of cool down laps and it should be ok for many, sure the paint on calipers will suffer but so what

Going for a bigger brake kit is of course going to help and for hardcore track users will alllow you to stay out longer and push harder, all depends what you want to spend and how much you track it.

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Old 04-04-2019, 16:54   #24
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Originally Posted by plip1953 View Post
So why is it that a large proportion of regular Evo trackgoers have switched to alternative calipers?

Name a few? I can't think of any, at least none that run serious power cars and/pr produce competitive times. Maybe different in sprinting.

Show me some that have discoloured. The bright yellow paint on the PF calipers fitted to my old TA car were fitted in 2012 and are still looking the same as when new. And I have red APs on my X RS that have seen quite a lot of track action over 10 years and they are still nice and bright.
You don't get "better braking", with larger discs, you get better heat dissipation... We are talking about road aftermarket brakes, not racing, with one pad per piston, water cooling, no dust seals...

I'm not against bigger brakes, and for regular EVO "trackgoers" it's understandable they want better cooling... Downside is, bigger brakes, more unsprung weight, and more expensive, and with 356 mm discs you need 18" wheels and tyres, which are also more expensive and also add more unsprung weight...

For other 99% of usage, especially for everyday performance with occasional track use, OEM Brembo calipers with good pads, discs, brake lines, brake fluid and optionally brake cooling ducts are more than enough...

I don't remember where I saw that, maybe Japan or Australia, but I don't think it was sprint class... Having said that, "serious" time attack cars are not common road cars, they are racing cars with cage, etc., therefore, most of them use racing calipers, which you must maintain regularly, they don't have dust seals...

The bright Brembo logo on my calipers still looks white, I only have discoloration in red color around that...

But you wanted to see some, so here you go:



Alcon 888 calipers



Alcon XKR 6 calipers





AP Racing





Quote:
Originally Posted by Unobtainium View Post
Those discs were made out of butter... Cracked after 3100 miles, first set of XP10 pads...

After that I bought DBA discs:

https://www.lancerregister.com/showp...&postcount=158

I don't know how many miles I have on them, but I'm on second set of XP10 pads, no problems with them, no signs of wear...

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To the OP: So far the best advice on here is from plip. Ditch the front brembos.
What? Just front? I have better one, let's all ditch the OEM Brembos and spend cca. 4000 GBP on aftermarket brakes...

Last edited by ND4SPD; 06-04-2019 at 05:50.. Reason: added more pictures
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Old 04-04-2019, 17:01   #25
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What? Just front? I have better one, let's all ditch the OEM Brembos and spend cca. 4000 GBP on aftermarket brakes...

Yes just the front. No need for an upgrade on the rear in my experience. No need to spend 4 grand at all. Best to shop around and get a good deal. He could sell his front brake setup and put that money and the money he would have spent on new discs towards a decent front brake setup which is better suited to trackdays. It's not an expensive upgrade doing it like this.
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Old 05-04-2019, 11:40   #26
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You don't get "better braking", with larger discs.


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Old 05-04-2019, 19:51   #27
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We are talking about OEM 4 piston calipers with 320x32 mm discs vs aftermarket, let's say Alcon, 6 piston calipers with 365x32 or 343x32 mm discs...

Not that much of a difference, and beside that, ALL OEM brakes on any car, must be capable to block the wheels...

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Old 06-04-2019, 21:51   #28
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I’m quite sure the extra diameter will help, as will the extra pad surface area comparing an AP or Alcon 6pot to the OE Brembo assuming pad material is the same.

I would also imagine calliper stiffness to be improved on an AP or Alcon over OE Brembo too.
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Old 07-04-2019, 02:25   #29
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I’m quite sure the extra diameter will help, as will the extra pad surface area comparing an AP or Alcon 6pot to the OE Brembo assuming pad material is the same.
It will - at least - better heat dissipation...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimC
I would also imagine calliper stiffness to be improved on an AP or Alcon over OE Brembo too.
That would be interesting to see in some scientific data, and advantages of that in real life circumstances... For example, Alcon Advantage Extreme are monoblock calipers, so they should be stiffer... I don't think that, if it exist, small distortions in calipers are that affected to the braking performance, pistons are operated by brake fluid, and should compensate even bigger distortions if occured... Also, in some racing calipers, you have one pad per piston, which should eliminate any distortion, and give even greater feeling and modulaton... Having said that, feeling and modulation mostly depends on pad compound...
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Old 07-04-2019, 08:54   #30
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Originally Posted by tsapi View Post
Good morning.

I am a happy owner of an evo 9, using it every day but also approx every two months on a track. My brake setup is the stock one with ferrodo ds2500 pads. I am happy with the everyday performance, but not so happy on the track, where they occasionally overheat. As the disks and the pads need replacement, I am thinking of buying something different than oem parts (maybe two part disks?) and maybe other pads than ds 2500. Please keep in mind that I want to keep the stock caliper and the stock 17" wheels. I have no problems with squeeks and noises during braking.

Thanks a lot for any input / suggestions!
Hey there!

I had the same issue with DS2500. On the track they behaved relatively OK (at least for a tight track like Megara) but they tend to leave a LOT of material on the discs which will then give you vibration on the steering when warmed up and you are under braking.

I think you should definitely opt for Carbotech pads and your concern should be XP8 or XP10

Guys here can help on that.

For my X, I thought that I should spend on a good brake configuration, so I decided to go large and spend on a set of PFC V3 discs, XP10s, Motul RFB600 and Goodridge brake lines.

However, I was a bit unlucky as my wheel bearing needs replacement (we measured it) so I need to wait for the new part to come and then put them on.

When I will put them on, I can share some feedback.

Here's some pics from when we removed the discs and calipers to check the wheel hub prior putting new discs on.

Those have two track days on them. I don't think I'm particularly hard on the brakes:



Look at the DS2500 pad deposits on the disc:



A picture of the hub who's bearing need replacement:

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