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Old 22-07-2009, 18:36   #1
BHP
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Dry Sumping Debate..........

This question is pretty close to my heart at the moment, at I have just had a turbo and crank expire after my Spa and Nurburgring trip in May. There may be a possibility that I suffered oil surge most probably at Spa due to the very fast and sweeping nature of the circuit.

We have seen that due to evolvement in suspension and tyre grip over the years, that when Evo's are used in real anger such as Time Attack and Trackdays, these engines suffer oil surge on right hand bends.

AMS has devised a sump with an extra 1.5 Litres of oil capacity and a few other tricks, but I'm led to believe that this isn't the answer either, and even if you had an AMS sump fitted, there is a potential for the engine to suffer oil surge

Most of the Evo Time Attack field is now going dry sump, to hopefully eliminate this phenomenon, but when is dry sumping really necessary ??

Are we saying that any Evo used on track that had more than a certain "G" on right hand bends could have most likely had the big end shells pick up ??

How would you know, without removing your sump and and taking your big end caps off to inspect your shells, ultimately your car could have worn shells now, and be in the same predicament that my car was ??

I'm just trying to get my head around spending in the region of £7000 for my replacement turbo and engine refresh which will probably require a new crank, unless I decide to regrind the old one.....

Would be good to have a focused dry sumping debate once and for all, to see at what level we need to go this way, whether it's G-Force, power levels etc, etc....
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Old 22-07-2009, 18:46   #2
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We have a complete dry sump kit in the making and it really is the only 100% solution for any track car

We believe most of the problem is attributed to the oil pickup location.
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Old 22-07-2009, 18:59   #3
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ken you could use a driftbox to determin your G in a corner.
i think this has been said before that unless you have significant aero you should be ok
i bet the ams sump is a marked improvement for the avid trackday goer but for all competion and complete protection dry sumping is the way.
p.s ken did you have a completely full sump to max on the dip stick? i think ams have reported little to zero pick up issues with trackdayers running slightly over full levels

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Old 22-07-2009, 19:06   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AMS View Post
We have a complete dry sump kit in the making and it really is the only 100% solution for any track car

We believe most of the problem is attributed to the oil pickup location.
Thanks for your input Eric

Will be interesting to see the AMS dry sump kit, as the only option I'm aware of is the Pace kit in the U.K. and I believe one of the Evo Time Attack car engine's expired with this kit fitted
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Old 22-07-2009, 19:08   #5
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ken you could use a driftbox to determin your G in a corner.
i think this has been said before that unless you have significant aero you should be ok
i bet the ams sump is a marked improvement for the avid trackday goer but for all competion and complete protection dry sumping is the way.
p.s ken did you have a completely full sump to max on the dip stick? i think ams have reported little to zero pick up issues with trackdayers running slightly over full levels
Lee, I always ran the car with the oil on the Max position on the dipstick. Changed the oil and filter every time I used the car in anger, and the engine used no oil.

I even opted not to use slicks at Spa for this reason, and the fact that if I fell off the track with slicks, it would be a big one !!
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Old 22-07-2009, 19:10   #6
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Lee, I always ran the car with the oil on the Max position on the dipstick. Changed the oil and filter every time I used the car in anger, and the engine used no oil.

I even opted not to use slicks at Spa for this reason, and the fact that if I fell off the track with slicks, it would be a big one !!
its an issue for sure
iirc 1 of the TA lads data logged oil pressure v cornering to see if it was directly affected
so not sure if they have spilled the beans on what they found?

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Old 22-07-2009, 19:21   #7
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Originally Posted by AMS View Post
We have a complete dry sump kit in the making and it really is the only 100% solution for any track car

We believe most of the problem is attributed to the oil pickup location.
will this be better than your wet sump kit??
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Old 22-07-2009, 19:23   #8
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all cars that are serious thrown around a track suffer from oil surge, dry sump is the only way to cure.

but as yet, it appears no 'decent' kit is available off the shelf.....
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Old 22-07-2009, 20:07   #9
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I know Si (Norris) is developing a dry sump system as is ANO where the pump can maintain 0.7barA (partial vacuum) at 2.4bar boost

Apart from the plumbing and remote "tank" the big "issue" is the cost - probably more than your rebuild

I wonder what the 9RS race series did in Japan - 2005+

G
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Old 22-07-2009, 20:30   #10
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Interesting post - sorry to hear about your troubles Ken

I got some oil pressure guages and datalogging stuff fiteed and was amazed/frightened by the drop in pressure on even relatively mild right hand corners

I haven't worked out the datalogging stuff yet but I fangled around with my oil warning settings and noticed on a damp trackday on road tyres (225 section RE070) that the pressure was dropping from 6 or 7 bar to just under 4 bar on right handers

I have fitted a Tomei baffle plate and will see if this makes any difference...

Cheers

Rog
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Old 22-07-2009, 20:36   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Admiral View Post
Interesting post - sorry to hear about your troubles Ken

I got some oil pressure guages and datalogging stuff fiteed and was amazed/frightened by the drop in pressure on even relatively mild right hand corners

I haven't worked out the datalogging stuff yet but I fangled around with my oil warning settings and noticed on a damp trackday on road tyres (225 section RE070) that the pressure was dropping from 6 or 7 bar to just under 4 bar on right handers

I have fitted a Tomei baffle plate and will see if this makes any difference...

Cheers

Rog
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Old 22-07-2009, 20:45   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimmyEvo6 View Post
all cars that are serious thrown around a track suffer from oil surge, dry sump is the only way to cure.

but as yet, it appears no 'decent' kit is available off the shelf.....
Funny enough Timmy, I was thinking about your car and the race series that you are in, which will you undoubtedly hit some good "G's" when cornering around right hand bends. Are you logging your oil pressure whilst racing ??

Quote:
Originally Posted by grants View Post
I know Si (Norris) is developing a dry sump system as is ANO where the pump can maintain 0.7barA (partial vacuum) at 2.4bar boost

Apart from the plumbing and remote "tank" the big "issue" is the cost - probably more than your rebuild

I wonder what the 9RS race series did in Japan - 2005+
G
I think Si quoted a couple of grand for the Dry Sump Kit, that he's developed, but as you can imagine, my misses had a baby today (Literally) when I showed her the rebuild cost of the engine. I suppose I could always try to shoe horn a Ford Pinto engine on twin 45's into my engine bay

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Admiral View Post
Interesting post - sorry to hear about your troubles Ken

I got some oil pressure guages and datalogging stuff fitted and was amazed/frightened by the drop in pressure on even relatively mild right hand corners

I haven't worked out the datalogging stuff yet but I fangled around with my oil warning settings and noticed on a damp trackday on road tyres (225 section RE070) that the pressure was dropping from 6 or 7 bar to just under 4 bar on right handers

I have fitted a Tomei baffle plate and will see if this makes any difference...

Cheers

Rog
That is a shocking pressure drop Rog, especially on a damp track

Imagine a dry track, using slick tyres whether your in a standard or modified Evo !!

If the oil pick up is the issue, in theory there is a good chance anyone that has done a fair bit of track action, will have some wear on the big end shells, or am I barking up the wrong tree ??

Last edited by BHP; 22-07-2009 at 21:20..
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Old 22-07-2009, 20:45   #13
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Hmm, so how is it that I've done quite a lot of trackdays in a 6 RS and not had any engine problems?

I was kindly lent a set of slicks at Spa, and still had no problems at all. I wasn't hanging around either.

As far as I can see, more power doesn't equal higher cornering speeds as such. (I just brake less than you! )

If you're running higher revs, is this causing the standard capacity sump to reach a lower level than intended? Would a high flow oil pump have the same effect?
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Old 22-07-2009, 20:50   #14
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Hmm, so how is it that I've done quite a lot of trackdays in a 6 RS and not had any engine problems?

I was kindly lent a set of slicks at Spa, and still had no problems at all. I wasn't hanging around either.

As far as I can see, more power doesn't equal higher cornering speeds as such. (I just brake less than you! )

If you're running higher revs, is this causing the standard capacity sump to reach a lower level than intended? Would a high flow oil pump have the same effect?
That's the point Huw,

Lots of Evo's have done a fair bit of track work with no issues what so ever !!

As you say, more power doesn't mean more corner speed, it just means that when you floor it mid corner the car steps out !!
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Old 22-07-2009, 20:55   #15
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That's the point Huw,

Lots of Evo's have done a fair bit of track work with no issues what so ever !!

As you say, more power doesn't mean more corner speed, it just means that when you floor it mid corner the car steps out !!

None of my track cars have diff sumps and not had a problem.

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