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Old 18-01-2021, 21:07   #16
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Originally Posted by Ads9 View Post
Personally I favour having a dedicated gauge such as AEM or Innovate so you can see what the car is doing, then whack that output into the ECU on a 0-5V analogue. Obviously there is a chance of some noise being introduced, unlike the CAN Lambda but I can't see that being a serious problem. With the CAN if the sensor fails or is out of calibration you most likely wouldn't know.
unsure about link but motec Can has all fall safes , if its sat on limit it will turn control off , if sensor fails again the control turns off and lights driver warning light.
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Old 18-01-2021, 22:25   #17
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Firstly I'd like to point out my previous comment was completely incorrect, wideband sensors don't output a voltage 0-5v depending on the AFR, they're a bit more complex and require driving circuitry. This is a pretty interesting guide http://wbo2.com/lsu/lsuworks.htm
Basically they're a combination of a narrow band sensor and a pump cell. The pump cell uses current to move oxygen across the cell in the form of o2- ions, either into or out of the diffusion chamber of the narrowband sensor. The controlling circuitry regulates the ions in/out of the chamber so that the exhaust mixture within the chamber is stoich, and by measuring the current used to drive the ions it can be calculated how many more/less oxygen ions are required and therefore what the lambda is.

For that reason you need the circuitry in the CAN based lambda sensor or the gauge to drive it. Noise is still a factor but probably not the driving force for analog-digital signalling in this case.
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Old 18-01-2021, 22:27   #18
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Originally Posted by Ads9 View Post
Personally I favour having a dedicated gauge such as AEM or Innovate so you can see what the car is doing, then whack that output into the ECU on a 0-5V analogue. Obviously there is a chance of some noise being introduced, unlike the CAN Lambda but I can't see that being a serious problem. With the CAN if the sensor fails or is out of calibration you most likely wouldn't know.
I agree it can be useful to see what your AFR is but there's lots of sensors which are equally if not more useful to monitor such as oil pressure and temperature. Before you know it your dash is full of gauges That being said I'm designing a digital gauge to allow me to switch between different sensors, getting the values from the link ECU over CAN

In terms of your other arguments of gauge vs CAN looking at the datasheet the CAN lambda sensor can detect if it has failed and has quite a comprehensive list of error modes, the error status is sent as the first byte of every CAN message frame, and the link ECU can activate the diagnostics light on the dash. I'd love to know how you can tell if your wideband sensor is out of calibration from looking at a gauge.

I have to say though the free air calibration feature from Innovate is a great idea, and is a feature Link (and AEM) should implement as though it's calibrated from factory carbon buildup, humidity, barometric pressure and various other factors affect the sensors ability to meter correctly.
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Old 18-01-2021, 23:02   #19
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Firstly I'd like to point out my previous comment was completely incorrect, wideband sensors don't output a voltage 0-5v depending on the AFR, they're a bit more complex and require driving circuitry. This is a pretty interesting guide http://wbo2.com/lsu/lsuworks.htm
Basically they're a combination of a narrow band sensor and a pump cell. The pump cell uses current to move oxygen across the cell in the form of o2- ions, either into or out of the diffusion chamber of the narrowband sensor. The controlling circuitry regulates the ions in/out of the chamber so that the exhaust mixture within the chamber is stoich, and by measuring the current used to drive the ions it can be calculated how many more/less oxygen ions are required and therefore what the lambda is.

For that reason you need the circuitry in the CAN based lambda sensor or the gauge to drive it. Noise is still a factor but probably not the driving force for analog-digital signalling in this case.
well, one usually buys the WB with it's controller, and that one outputs 0-5V that is a linear representation of the AFR... doesnt have to be a gauge..

The usual problem is that people use two different grounding points for the ecu and WB controller and that can cause some difference in the potential of the ground and messes up the measurement. Usually it is enough to connect the WB controller directly to the computer, trough rs232 or usb, and just confirm that the engine ECU sees the same AFR trough the 0 to 5V signal as does the WB controller..
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Old 19-01-2021, 13:36   #20
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All very fair points made against the dedicated gauge rather than the CAN only device. My concern with a CAN only device is that it will throw the EML on and you wouldn't know what sensor has had it without the laptop or a CAN display. If you have the dedicate gauge you can see the status of the fuelling as well as a fault code if the sensor goes down.

Hopefully food for thought for OP

Also to add it doesn't have to be on display all the time, I have my AFR meter in the glovebox and have the data repeated on a CAN display. Being able to see the AFR live helped me identify a failing fuel pump which if I'd had the CAN only Lambda and/ or no display, I doubt Ive have spotted without studying the data logs.
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Old 19-01-2021, 15:01   #21
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Old 19-01-2021, 15:15   #22
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Not all AFR kits have a frequency translator that needs to be grounded. it depends on the kit. I recommend using Bosch sensors, in this case an LSU 5 wire one, newest version by Bosch, and always use the same frequency signal feed for both gauge and ecu, either after the kits translator or before, again it depends on the kit, and the ecu you use, as there are ecus that do not need an external stand-alone frequency translator. What causes the problem in my experience is not in relation to grounding, but in relation to whether you wire it in the ecu before or after the translator.








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Old 19-01-2021, 15:38   #23
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Not all AFR kits have a frequency translator that needs to be grounded. it depends on the kit. I recommend using Bosch sensors, in this case an LSU 5 wire one, newest version by Bosch, and always use the same frequency signal feed for both gauge and ecu, either after the kits translator or before, again it depends on the kit, and the ecu you use, as there are ecus that do not need an external stand-alone frequency translator. What causes the problem in my experience is not in relation to grounding, but in relation to whether you wire it in the ecu before or after the translator.

Marios
Quick correction Marios to avoid future confusion

"frequency translator" is the same as "interface"

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Old 19-01-2021, 15:43   #24
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Quick correction Marios to avoid future confusion

"frequency translator" is the same as "interface"

Grant

No it is not, the frequency translator is the part on the controller's circuitry that translates the frequency signal at its bandwidth range, from the sensor to the external display device or ecu. The controller itself is the interface, and I actually run a kit on my car that does not need to be grounded.




Your point on the knock detection and control is correct, without proper knock detection at least, one would not be able to tune a setup properly.






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Old 19-01-2021, 15:51   #25
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Oh! Grant I have a few Dents and Knocks in my knees as my ACL's ain't great Oh good point I am getting old and worn out mate.
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Old 19-01-2021, 15:58   #26
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i'm confused, what signal goes directly to the ECU?
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Old 19-01-2021, 16:01   #27
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Oh! Grant I have a few Dents and Knocks in my knees as my ACL's ain't great Oh good point I am getting old and worn out mate.
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Old 19-01-2021, 16:41   #28
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i'm confused, what signal goes directly to the ECU?

If the ecu has an integrated signal controller/translator then it does not need the external controller/translator, then one can connect the LSU 4.9 for instance directly to the ecu. The sensor works on frequency pulsing and bandwidth, it is the translator/controller that gives the overall voltage output and it gives the translation to the display to be viewed as an a numeric AFR reading.




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Old 19-01-2021, 17:04   #29
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The ECU is a Cosworth MQ12 with 4 NTK lambda sensors connected directly

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Old 19-01-2021, 18:16   #30
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All very fair points made against the dedicated gauge rather than the CAN only device. My concern with a CAN only device is that it will throw the EML on and you wouldn't know what sensor has had it without the laptop or a CAN display. If you have the dedicate gauge you can see the status of the fuelling as well as a fault code if the sensor goes down.

Hopefully food for thought for OP

Also to add it doesn't have to be on display all the time, I have my AFR meter in the glovebox and have the data repeated on a CAN display. Being able to see the AFR live helped me identify a failing fuel pump which if I'd had the CAN only Lambda and/ or no display, I doubt Ive have spotted without studying the data logs.

I am switching to link and will keep the innovate LC2... have no problem with that..
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