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Old 12-05-2019, 09:27   #16
Ads9
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Suspension can be quite a subjective thing. Personally I’ve had exe-tc, tein monoflex and now MeisterR GT1. For what I use the car for (90% B road mixed driving) the GT1 tick all the boxes- not too firm/ hard, predictable handling, fair price point (although that may have changed) and they also include adjustable top mounts. I’d describe the ride as very similar to a standard sporty car, golf GT etc, but when you turn in the car doesn’t dive, it sits flat.
The Tein were the harshest of all 3 sets I’ve had and ride was too firm for the road IMO, very much like coilovers used to have the reputation for of being too hard for the road. EXE were good but it’s that long ago I can’t really recall if it was a very harsh ride or not.
I’ve not had Ohlins but as with many things there will be what’s popular, and right now that’s Ohlins. I’m not saying that’s unjustified, but 10 years ago it was EXE TC or Tein Monoflex.
After all of that, your best bet would be to have a ride in someone else’s car with the suspension setup you’re looking at. Also keep in mind wheel and tire choice will have some effect on the ride. I noticed a big change going from OE 17” with 235 to 18” with 255 before changing suspension and geo setup.

WRT it being an MR 360 and wanting to retain value/ originality, it’s not like swapping out shocks is a hard job and could easily be put back to OE later with a fresh geo setup.
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Old 12-05-2019, 19:18   #17
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Ohlins are "probably" worth the money to be perfectly honest. If I were budgeting that much on new suspension to replace an old worn out set, then I'd actually choose Meister's GT1s. I helped develop the GT1 with my old IX and they are exactly what I would want.

Thing is ... I'm looking at suspension myself for the worn out gear on my VI.
I first looked at replacing with standard. But I also need top mounts and would also fit lowering springs at the same time.
Alongside this idea, I thought about going for Bilstein dampers of some kind, with top mounts and lowering springs.
The cost for all that was beginning to mount up, royally.

For not a great deal more I could go for GT1s...

However, for a car that cost me less than £10k as a base, and us primarily a "3rd car", I struggle to justify that expense on suspension.
The upshot is that I'll probably invest in a set of MeisterR CRD in the near future, with the potential to have them rebuilt to GT1 spec in the future. Overall, it'll cost less than standard replacement dampers, plus top mounts, plus lowering springs, and offer more in terms of adjustability - particularly as I prefer a nice but of rake on my Evo that probably won't be available from just a lowering springs kit.

Food for thought

Mark H
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Old 12-05-2019, 20:28   #18
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One thing I would like to know - in real world

just how good are Ohlins v Billies on TEIN lowering springs for B road blasts???

Is it worth the ££££
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Old 12-05-2019, 21:08   #19
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Originally Posted by Stallion View Post
One thing I would like to know - in real world

just how good are Ohlins v Billies on TEIN lowering springs for B road blasts???

Is it worth the ££££
We're talking about marginal gains.
The advantage with coilovers is the ability to set ride height exactly as you wish, and also set front camber to the desired amount. ( Plus ability to corner weight... )
From the camber setting alone, coilovers have a great handling advantage, but you really need to invest in excess of £1,500 to also have damping which is on a par with Bilstein dampers.
So it is a compromise.

Slàinte Mhath

Mark H
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Old 13-05-2019, 07:55   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stallion View Post
One thing I would like to know - in real world

just how good are Ohlins v Billies on TEIN lowering springs for B road blasts???

Is it worth the ££££
It's a very good question, and I'd suggest with no truly objective answer. Part of the problem here is that anyone suggesting that the set of Ohlins they'd just fitted were night and day better than the OE setup being replaced will be comparing apples with pears because the Billies would most likely have been old and tired.
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Old 13-05-2019, 08:18   #21
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I went from Billies with Tein springs to Ohlins and I do have to say it was a massive difference to the way the car handled.

However, at the same time I also fully polybushed the car, fitted uprated engine mounts as well as a roll centre kit, new drop links, lowered the car, corner weighted it and replaced every nut and bolt on the underside....so it is very difficult to purely isolate the impact of fitting just the Ohlins..

BTW my Billies were not too bad when removed (only had 33k on them) and only replaced them since I wanted to fit coilovers so I could lower it and adjust the damping for when I went onto the track.
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Old 13-05-2019, 09:11   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plip1953 View Post
It's a very good question, and I'd suggest wish no truly objective answer. Part of the problem here is that anyone suggesting that the set of Ohlins they'd just fitted were night and day better than the OE setup being replaced will be comparing apples with pears because the Billies would most likely have been old and tired.

Not only because the parts replaced were *probably* old and tired - but also because coilovers are clearly adjustable in several important ways - where standard suspension is not.

You can buy adjustable front top mounts for standard Bilstein struts (from Tein), but that just adds another level of cost over the replacement Bilsteins, BUT you are still beholden to the single ride-height of the springs that you fit and can't fine tune that at all.

In a contest of solely DAMPING - the Bilstein standard struts are equally as good as any Ohlins or GT1 damping. Sure they are all slightly different, but even though the Ohlins and GT1s offer adjustable damping qualities, any (fixed or 1 way) damper setup is simply a compromise, where the 3 I'm talking about here have zoned into a good compromise between acceptable compliancy over sharp bumps/compressions (=high speed bump/rebound) and car body control in cornering (and to a lesser extent pitch in accel/decal) (=low speed damping response).

From memory, I think the damping response curves from dyno testing are available for GT1s on the Meister website - and these (again from memory) display a lovely sharp "shoulder" which is exactly the response curve that was targeted, for good reason - because it provides the compromise that I'm describing that marks out a "good" damper from the also-ran.

There is a lot more to suspension than simply damping though, and as Phil says - comparing the overall handling results of even a brand new set of Bilstein to a decent set of coilovers isn't a fair comparison because it leaves the Bilstein at a disadvantage due to the extra range of adjustment available on the coilover...

Yours Aye

Mark H
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Old 13-05-2019, 12:16   #23
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Originally Posted by Rampant View Post
You can buy adjustable front top mounts for standard Bilstein struts (from Tein), but that just adds another level of cost over the replacement Bilsteins, BUT you are still beholden to the single ride-height of the springs that you fit and can't fine tune that at all.

Yours Aye

Mark H
What exactly are you trying to achieve with adjustable top mounts? Are we talking road or track use? The KW V3 coilover (considered, I think, to be broadly equivalent to the Ohlins DFV) specifically does not come with an adjustable topmount, and it's not recommended (by KW) that one is fitted.
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Old 13-05-2019, 13:16   #24
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What exactly are you trying to achieve with adjustable top mounts? Are we talking road or track use? The KW V3 coilover (considered, I think, to be broadly equivalent to the Ohlins DFV) specifically does not come with an adjustable topmount, and it's not recommended (by KW) that one is fitted.
We're talking either road or track - it's end-application agnostic.*

It's that you can run "any" front camber that you'd like while also having them "perfectly matched".
Same goes for adjustable spring perches on coilovers - "any" height you want while also having them perfectly matched to each other (or even corner weighted if you want to go down that route.)

Bringing the KW V3 just adds more complexity to the discussion, rather than being helpful. I'd say it isn't really an "example" of what is right - just that if it is true they don't want you to fit aftermarket top mounts, and actively dissuade V3 users to not fit rose jointed top mounts, then that could be for any number of reasons?! (including, as fruity examples that V3 may be prone to transmitting noise that solid top mounts would transmit more easily and that could be their way of minimising customer dissatisfaction/returns/false warranty issues? Or it could even be that it is certified this way for TUV approval? )

AVO also do a GTX kit that they want you to mate to standard top mounts. I used them for a while and from that experience my preference is for a rose joint mount, which gives the end user more freedom of adjustability.

For coilover manufacturers that do include adjustable top mounts - that's not simply pandering to market - but for the purposes of adjustability. And that is never a bad option to have.

Yours Aye

Mark H

* I was running minus 2.25° front camber (zero toe) on my daily driven (fast road) Evo IX. Some people may opine that that much isn't "necessary" on a road car. In response I would say that it was *my* car and I adjusted it to what I felt was the optimum setting for how I wanted the car to feel when I drove it
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Old 13-05-2019, 15:08   #25
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Yours Aye

Mark H

* I was running minus 2.25° front camber (zero toe) on my daily driven (fast road) Evo IX. Some people may opine that that much isn't "necessary" on a road car. In response I would say that it was *my* car and I adjusted it to what I felt was the optimum setting for how I wanted the car to feel when I drove it
That's pretty much exactly my point! Nick could generally achieve -2.25 degs without needing adjustable topmounts.


With Ohlins DFVs on one of my Xs the amount of additional noise experienced inside the cabin (compared with an OE setup) was somewhat annoying. Could this have been because of the solid topmounts?

I'll find out about KW V3, but in the meantime I suggest it's a bit unfair to draw unsubstantiated assumptions.
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Old 13-05-2019, 16:51   #26
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That's pretty much exactly my point! Nick could generally achieve -2.25 degs without needing adjustable topmounts.


With Ohlins DFVs on one of my Xs the amount of additional noise experienced inside the cabin (compared with an OE setup) was somewhat annoying. Could this have been because of the solid topmounts?

I'll find out about KW V3, but in the meantime I suggest it's a bit unfair to draw unsubstantiated assumptions.

I did say there were on the fruity side of the *potential* reasons, but I wasn't making assumptions that that was the case - just that it was a possibility, regardless of what their PR department might say. There may be some mileage in the TUV certification thought, though...

The trouble with "generally" achieve -2.25°, this was not possible on my IX with Bilstein on Tein S Tech springs (unless you go to lengths of drilling the strut bolt-holes on some cars - then it becomes eminently "possible", but still "problematic"!). The "Best" that Nick could achieve was approx. -1° on one side and approx. -1.5° on the other. Hence the reason I was saying that whatever you want, you can definitely have *exactly* that on camber top mounts, and have it *exactly* equal on both sides. Same goes for height adjustment - general lowering springs will generally put a car a bit uneven. This generic un-evenness isn't very noticeable on standard ride height, but becomes more visibly noticeable as you get the wheel closer to the lip of the arch. And that can be a bit of a negative for some owners once they've actually noticed it.

The noise on your X is very probably related to solid top mounts. That is just something you either put up with or change back to rubber. Off the top of my head I think it was BC racing that changed the solid rear mount on the Evo and Subaru coilovers (but not all cars) for a rubber bush due to issues of noise. Some struts generate some extra cabin noise and that's just how it is. Evos and Subaru are particularly prone to the noise, I hear ( <- I made a pun )


It is a complicated topic and one that is filled intrinsically with lots of compromise, that is until you get to high end expensive gear that costs more than my current Evo was to buy, with 3 way adjustable or more settings, generally for high speed and low speed compression/bump, and combined high/low rebound...

Good chat

Mark H
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Old 13-05-2019, 17:12   #27
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I've had Stance GR+, BC RM's, Ohlins DFV's, Tein monoflex, Nitron NTR R3's fitted to evos...

I also have also had experience with KW Street comforts fitted to my BM for daily use.

If I were buying a set of suspension for a road going evo I would probably get a set of KW Variant 1's or 2's depending on how my budget would stretch and keep the OEM top mounts. The variant 1's are about £1200. They have fixed rebound and compression. The V2's have adjustable rebound but can't see them listed atm... The V3's are nice with adjustable rebound and compression but about £1900.

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Old 13-05-2019, 17:35   #28
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I did say there were on the fruity side of the *potential* reasons, but I wasn't making assumptions that that was the case - just that it was a possibility, regardless of what their PR department might say. There may be some mileage in the TUV certification thought, though...


Mark H
Just for the record, both the KW V3 and the next level Clubsport kits (ie with adjustable solid topmounts) are both TUV approved.
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Old 13-05-2019, 18:28   #29
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Just for the record, both the KW V3 and the next level Clubsport kits (ie with adjustable solid topmounts) are both TUV approved.
I think all their suspension kits are Phil, even the ST stuff.
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Old 13-05-2019, 18:41   #30
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I think all their suspension kits are Phil, even the ST stuff.
I'm sure all of the lesser ST range stuff will be, but I was thinking more in terms of KW's race coilover range that might be more equivalent to something like the Nitron R3.
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