Impact of removing spoiler

[Wellground]

Originally Posted by ant1

Cars where limited to 155mph as fixed speed cameras originally couldn't capture cars past this speed.

Strange, even hand held TSS speed guns worked very well at over 155mph. I used them for many years. I had great fun at the side of the track at Castle Combe with one on a bike track day. I can confirm they work very well above 155. As for fixed Truvelo and GATSO units not recoding over 155mph. I doubt it. FAKE NEWS

[RichW]

After a brief Google search it would seem it was a gentlemans agreement between the big German companies to appease the Greens and to prevent Government legislation - sounds more like it.

No mention of it due to being design / airflow issues.

[Clivew]

Originally Posted by RichW

After a brief Google search it would seem it was a gentlemans agreement between the big German companies to appease the Greens and to prevent Government legislation - sounds more like it.

No mention of it due to being design / airflow issues.

Yep, exactly the same as the gentlemans agreement to cap BHP for superbikes. That didn't last long!

Pretty well all 'sporty' 155mph speed restricted cars can be 'unrestricted' as a customer option when buying the car. (another way to extract money from the punter!)

[Evosick]

Originally Posted by Rampant

Clearly you still don't *really* know what you are talking about.

CENTRE of GRAVITY is only one element of balance. I already mentioned CENTRE OF PRESSURE.

It is the interplay between CofG and CofP (and weight transfer calculations, etc...) throughout the entire performance envelope that imbues a car with "balance", not simply CofG on its own in isolation...

If you'd like to get even more technical I can entertain you even further with concepts like weight distribution, polar moments of inertia and more that make up the overall balance of a car.

Yours Aye

Mark H

I really think..

You should

waffle on ......

[Evosick]

[QUOTE=Clivew;5749313]Aerodynamic forces mainly affect the centre of pressure, and the effect on the centre of gravity will be extremely small (basically only happening if any downforce compresses the suspension)

So, the balance Mark is talking about is aerodynamic balance, nothing to do with mechanical balance.

The wing effects the position of the centre of pressure, and removing the wing changes this centre of pressure and the aerodynamic balance changes to a position that will make the car more unstable. The higher the speed, the more of an effect it has.

The only way to change the position of the centre of gravity is by physically moving mass around the car, or by raising or lowering the car.

Every object that has air going over it will have a centre of pressure; cars, aircraft, golf balls and if it is critical to the operation of the object then it's normally tested in a wind tunnel.

The study of the dynamics of aircraft, vehicles and vessels, forces and moments need to be resolved relative to the mass center. That is true independent of whether gravity itself is a consideration. Referring to the mass-center as the center-of-gravity is something of a colloquialism, but it is in common usage and when gravity gradient effects are negligible, center-of-gravity and mass-center are the same and are used interchangeably.

Yes, that's right, and removing the rear wing will change the aerodynamic balance. If the rear wing weighed 100kg, it would also change the centre of gravity, but it's very light so will have a negligible affect.

No, the centre of gravity is not putting both together. They are seperate things but 'can' have an affect on each other.

The wing and other aerodynamic devices keep the centre of pressure in a position where the car is stable at higher speed. It doesn't balance gravity and is not the centre of gravity.

Gravity is a force due to the mass of an object, aerodynamic force is caused by an object travelling through a medium (air/gas/water etc)

So you don't think Andy Green is intelligent? [QUOTE=Clivew;5749313]

Where am I questioning anyone's opinions ???
swear the thread is covered with bland humour

Well pressure is obviously a force right
(Boost is measured in pressure ie bar/psi etc) isnt that a measured force



Seem to prove the op right about ****ishness

See as I called *balance (center of gravity) got somones knickers right in a twist eh

[Evosick]

Lmao

[grants]

Originally Posted by Evosick

If any man wants a 200mhp car he won't want a tin light 4pot but a heavy v12 bi turbo

I'd love a 200 milli hp car - NOT

[Clivew]

Originally Posted by Evosick

Seem to prove the op right about ****ishness

See as I called *balance (center of gravity) got somones knickers right in a twist eh

There is only one person getting their knickers in twist, some of us are just posting facts.

Why are you posting info from Wikipedia and random internet postings that have no relevance to removing the rear wing from an Evo?

The centre of mass is basically the centre of gravity, and as Mark and I posted, has no real relevance to removing the rear wing. Removing the rear wing changes the centre of pressure.

The centre of pressure is neither the centre of gravity nor centre of mass!

The relationship between gravity and air pressure (the other random copied internet posting) has no relevance to either the centre of gravity of a vehicle or it's centre of pressure.

You are basically clutching at straws to somehow convince yourself that you know what you are talking about, when you obviously haven't got even a basic understanding of the subject.

Seriously, what is the point?

Your posts also have undertones of insulting both myself and other forum members, when all we have done is try and explain things to you in simple terms, so that you can understand.

[Clivew]

Originally Posted by Evosick

I really think..

You should

waffle on ......

Oh, the irony!

[Evosick]

Lol

Awwww you feel insulted now

Sad how op or anyone but You & your tag mate is allowed to feel insulted

The replies show how hurt ppl are

I frankly don't give a ****

And posting facts from Wikipedia or any part of net is off subject but when you two old ladies want a chat at someone else's expense it's fine

Apologies for my bantering

I don't care about your terminologies of a cars ability to stay on the ground

It's boring it's why I couldn't be arsed to write but cut & paste

Whatever lol

[Evosick]

Originally Posted by Clivew

There is only one person getting their knickers in twist, some of us are just posting facts.

Why are you posting info from Wikipedia and random internet postings that have no relevance to removing the rear wing from an Evo?

The centre of mass is basically the centre of gravity, and as Mark and I posted, has no real relevance to removing the rear wing. Removing the rear wing changes the centre of pressure.

The centre of pressure is neither the centre of gravity nor centre of mass!

The relationship between gravity and air pressure (the other random copied internet posting) has no relevance to either the centre of gravity of a vehicle or it's centre of pressure.

You are basically clutching at straws to somehow convince yourself that you know what you are talking about, when you obviously haven't got even a basic understanding of the subject.

Seriously, what is the point?

Your posts also have undertones of insulting both myself and other forum members, when all we have done is try and explain things to you in simple terms, so that you can understand.

Blah blah blah

Stop being so sensitive ....insult sure YOU know the meaning or shall I Wikipedia that too

I'm pulling your mr double standards out.

No offence intended.

[robert12345]

evosick going back to the fact of the evo not needing a rear spoiler is just simply wrong . And mitsubushi delvoped the evo for rallying and they would not have put a big wing on the cars if they didn't have a effect and most rally cars are not doing more that 130 top speed if the rally teams thought they didn't need a big spoiler the would of just ditched it for a little boot lip to save weight/drag

[Evosick]

Originally Posted by Evosick

Guys the spoiler don't effect a road car but if your in wrc and have lack of down force when jumping mid air on a bump the wing will help get back down or it would fly up and hit several trees

My uncle back in 2001 when used to live in Oldham took his uk spec wrx with low boot spoiler which only came on UK specs he had some mods done and went out for a blasting session on the moors twisty b roads

Lucky I didn't go because that's what the scooby did flew up @120mph hit 4 trees and roll oem roll cage survived with car totally mangled ....

Then again US drag set ups have no spoiler but a lip and a parachute https://youtu.be/HU9-nlFKV78
https://youtu.be/jXMtPkkwTbc

Like I said if you driving sensible (like me) you have no need for a high wing and a spoiler/lip would be sufficient for normal use just like a stock cat which is road legal

But as we all lol I mean all choose a decat system for full potential meaning illegal if traffic cops do us a road side mot we would get our cars taken off us....yes we know that but we risk it for the biscuits

It's the same with the rear wing it sure does help as the power to weight ratio is ...

Both 6 cylinder cars weight more on front...
My s4 weigh over 2ton with 450hp and Quattro no spoiler because weight keeps it on the tarmac/track

E46 m3 convertible also a heavy basket ....got a flat and tried using jack and guess what it broke.. and lucky saved my legs while getting a 19" 255 back on

Evo on other hand is like a (not exactly but you know what I mean as light as it) civic type r with extra forced induction and plenty of boost.

Now put it this way if the evo TME that Tommi drove had no wing he wouldn't have let the TME be in existence today lets be honest. So 100% credit where it's due but what with 4x4 set up we all lower our evos and if lowered as much as I want (slammed)

I don't need a massive wing or attract more attention (police,ricers,idiots

All my cars are lowered and look sleek rather than tall and skinny I l9ve wide and low

However it's a personal preferences & choice no argument or opinions matter really
When it comes down to individual styling

When I source the boot lip or find fellow mlr member with same views we will be able to share it with you all so you can follow the trend

Look at this on eBay http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/222167687615

I've not seen it on a E6 and want mine to be the 1st

But only if some one can confirm E6 & E7 boot lid has same dimensions.

Covered the fact that these cars were developed for off road group A & N rally series.



Mines a going to be a daily drive not a weekend rally car or trackster.

I'm not into driving corsa and micras lol

BTW my spoiler is off for a rust removal and a carbon blade.

Never knew these wings were 5pc flat packs lol

[lawsy]

Originally Posted by Clivew

Yes, and the critical change to make sure the car wasn't unstable at high speed was the bonnet which had no vents in it, along with suspension changes to also improve stability.

Vents in the bonnet reduce lift at the front of the car by allowing high pressure air to escape upwards out of the engine bay, which reduces lift at the front. If the vents are removed, the higher pressure air escape downwards under the car, increasing lift at the front.

This makes sure the centre of pressure doesn't move to a position that makes the car unstable, even if the rear spoiler isn't fitted.

Also no letterbox holes in the front bumper too Clive

[Rampant]

Originally Posted by Evosick

I really think..

You should

waffle on ......

OK. Challenge accepted.

Let's consider a vehicle that is aerodynamically neutral at all speeds. No lift. No downforce.

Let's make the static weight distribution also close to the ideal. Shall we choose 48:52 front:rear. Yeah. Let's go for that. Close enough to optimum.

Its a front engine saloon car. Engine is slightly forward of the front axle line. That means we've had to place a *lot* of weight behind the rear axle to gain the optimum "centre of gravity".

Will this car handle well?

You see - taking your apparent view on centre of gravity being king, it must be close to the best handling car since bread came pre-sliced. Centre of gravity is bob-on the optimum. What's not to like?

Discuss... (Challenge to convince me you know what you're talking about)

Yours Aye

Mark H