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Conservatory Advice

4K views 30 replies 5 participants last post by  dazmacca 
#1 · (Edited)
Hi All,

I have a few niggles bugging me about my new conservatory (purchased, fully paid and fitted in Oct/Nov 2017) from a local well established company who supply and fit and they seem to have all the certifications I would expect from a reputable company.

In December 2017, I reported a leak down the inside wall of the conservatory - quick response was received, were the fitters returned a couple of days later and used silicone between the frame and render throughout the whole frame from the inside.

In January 2018, I see a dribble in one of the corners of the conservatory - So called them again and got a quick response, fitters came out and removed the PVC trimming and about 1litre of water gushed out from behind. The fitters , the manager and a senior fitter - On inspection they found water dripping through the nuts and bolts of the frame. - So the removed the glass panels and used silicone all the way round which did not stop the dribble. -Which left them scratching their heads on what the problem could be.

http://www.lancerregister.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=310940&stc=1&d=1520500111

My background before I continue - I am an internal ISO 9001 quality inspector and Metrologist who specialises in troubleshooting measurement variation and measurement uncertainty. I could compile a report using calibrated tools as my disposal so that measurements are traceable to international standards and SI Units as just by looking at the fitment I can confirm they measured from the render rather than the brickwork of the house so when the frame was manufactured rather than having a product that is 5mm ± 2mm gap, the gap is 15mm ± 5mm gap, which I can do before I escalating.

My opinion regarding this problem was that the source was the original source I reported back in December 2017 and had a suspicion that the leak was being re-directed to the frame and due to a capillary effect and laws of gravity the water was running along the frame and through the nuts, to confirm this I used a hose and sprayed water in to the air and the wall of the house to confirm my suspicion- As I expressed my opinion to the manager he replied with I shouldn't be spraying in to the frame and the rubber gasket above the glass, which I was quite offended by as this indicated he was suggesting I was making this up and making a problem when there wasn't one.

So after a couple of weeks of head scratching and waiting for nature to run its course (waiting for a rainy day) - a definitive confirmation of water running in to the house enabled me to call the company and ask them to return for them to see for themselves to which they agreed there is water behind the leading and confirmed the leading will need to be re-done.

They came out yesterday (07/03/2018) replaced 1 side of the leading and reworked the other side. What I mean by re-work is, peeled back the lead cut deeper in to the render (not sure is they cut in to the block work behind the render) and re-cemented the leading to the render. I specifically asked them to remove the silicone between the conservatory and the house so I can keep an eye out for any more leaks.

The Leading:

http://www.lancerregister.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=310942&stc=1&d=1520500111

http://www.lancerregister.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=310944&stc=1&d=1520500111

The reason I am asking for advice is, it's left a really sour taste from this experience and now the quality inspector inside of me, could be being pedantic because this is not my area of expertise. My question is should there be a 15-20mm gap between the frame and the house? They advertise on their website that conservatories are energy efficient without compromising on the homes warmth which is why I when down the route of a new conservatory (to replace an existing one - which IMO was warmer and did not leak) instead of doing an extension. Cost wise it would have been about the same because I paid extra for Pilkington Activ™ Blu glass as well as having every window and door replaced to reduce energy bills.

The Gap:

http://www.lancerregister.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=310948&stc=1&d=1520500111

http://www.lancerregister.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=310946&stc=1&d=1520500111

I would really appreciate advice and how I should proceed. - I have arranged a meeting at my house to discuss with the manager my concerns but I would like to be more informed about quality standards and workman ship standards for conservatories.

Many thanks in advance.

Nas
 

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#2 ·
Roof is a global roof . The bars attach to ring beam (metal bit on top of windows )threw a pre drilled hole this don’t not enable bar to be tapped over to the wall . In pic I can see ring beam is not same width as frames that meet the wall . It should be exactly the same width . There is a soaker Chanel that lead fits into on that end bar . So water runs down Chanel then onto gutter . It’s important to seal where ring beam meets wall and I also seal where gutter stop end meets house to stop water running down and inside . If window are 3 m ring beam should be same width .
 
#6 ·
Thanks Gav for the quick response, please see below.

Roof is a global roof . The bars attach to ring beam (metal bit on top of windows )threw a pre drilled hole this don't not enable bar to be tapped over to the wall . In pic I can see ring beam is not same width as frames that meet the wall . It should be exactly the same width . There is a soaker Chanel that lead fits into on that end bar . So water runs down Chanel then onto gutter . It's important to seal where ring beam meets wall and I also seal where gutter stop end meets house to stop water running down and inside . If window are 3 m ring beam should be same width .
So the beam should be longer so that the pre drilled hole is closer to the wall?

Lead work should be a minimum of 150 mill in height from the bead
I'll measure this when i get home.

When u look out of upstairs window does the bottom of the glass panes appear to be inline with next pane . If it's staggered then roof could be out of square . Then fitters silicone the top of glass whet it goes into the socket or ridge at the top .
All except the last plane (closest to the house) are square, I noticed the last plane offsets increases as is reaches the ring beam, i'd estimate if we say zero offset at the top by the time it reaches the ring beam there is about 3-4mm difference.

Can u send more pics please is the glass sitting in evenly or can u see edge of of unit spacer bars .
Definitely when i get home tonight i'll take more pictures to confirm.

For the time being here's a couple more picture of what i do have.

http://www.lancerregister.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=310950&stc=1&d=1520505793

http://www.lancerregister.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=310952&stc=1&d=1520505793

Thanks for your help I really appreciate it. :smthumbup
 

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#7 ·
From the offset 2 picture, The gap between the metal piece and the wall (Under the ledge where the lead sits, is open and is letting in a lot of cold air in to the conservatory on both sides. I'm guessing this is due to the length of the ring beam being 15mm too short and because of where the pre-drilled hole is or is it the norm to silicone the gap from the inside as seen in the gap picture from my first post?
 
#8 ·
In pic two it shows bar this has slip down . Only thing stopping bar moving is nut which slides into Ali Chanel underneath it . Ali bar , Ali bead and plastic internal trim are all same length . This shows that the Ali bar itsaelf has slipped down as it appears longer . The other pic shows white clip on right hand side this is a glass stop it stop glass form slip down . Filling these Chanel are bad as any water can’t run out of Chanel . In second pick u can see glass has bigger gap on left then pain on right . And I can see spacer bar of glass I beleave not covering correctly with bead . Logically unless house is majorly out of level plum what ever gap u have between ring beam u should have at the top . I e ridge . I beleave they have pulled ridge right to wall at top making it out of square . U can usually easily visually see this on the sealed unit spacer bar . Imagine putting to cards next to each other then pushing tops over at the top . Easy way is to put a square on ring beam and the white bar . If u don’t have one u can literally use a sheet of paper or a square piece anything . I believe I have a global fitting guide I will take some picks . In one picture I beleave I can see spacer bar of sealed unit . When inside u will see black at bottom then it will slowly disappear as it reaches the top . And reverse on other side on that pain . Ali ring beam and ridge have pre drilled holes in at correction manufactured widths . So these can’t be moved . This is y beam and frame should be same width . On a dead level plum house of frame is roughing wall . Ring beam touches wall and starter bars and ridge touch wall . In same principle if house is dead level and plum if ring beam is short 15 mm then bar and ridge should also be 15 mm to keep roof square . Occasionally house are out and roof need packing off or frames need packing off . But as said frames should not be longer then ring beam . I honestly think when u put a square on bars it will be out of square . Ridge needs packing off from wall . Bars need pushing up and tightening . Silicone needs removing . More pics from inside please . U can check square by doing a 3 4 5 If u get me
 
#10 ·
U can tell as the brown glass drip should sit the same distance up from bottom of bar in your pic right hand unit is lower then lest suggesting ridge needs packing off from wall slightly to square . When u put paper on glass socket at bottom where ring beam is , line it up on the glass next to bar on the wall . It will probably ope up as it goes up the glass
 
#16 ·
Thanks Gav,



I'm Good to use 3,4,5 and checking the bars are square. I didn't quite understand what you mean by putting paper on the glass socket.. :confused:

More pics of full length of bars so I can see how glass is sitting . Ali bar sits correct distance in one pic but house wall pic u can see bar has slid down lower . This is Because bolt does not go through bar it slides in the Chanel
I'll be posting as soon as I get home later :smthumbup So the bar has slide down from the top? :wallbang: I'm hoping I can make a list of things to discuss with the manager when he comes tomorrow and try get them to do do as you are suggesting. If not i'll get my DIY hat on :D

That leadwork is terrible :shake:
Including yourself I've had 3 others tell me the same thing - What leg should I stand on when i talk to the manager :goingmad: ?
 
#14 ·
In pic one of original post I beleave I can see spacer bar of unit meaning unless u spacer all way up ( ie it square and glass needs moving over ) roof it out of square as it’s sexound bar it actually means ridge is pushing out an gap u see on ring beam needs to be bigger . Only way water can come out of nut as it’s a Chanel is if it gets behind glass bead as no coverage and drops on to the internal plastic which covers Ali bar then run down into ring beam Chanel and only escape is through nut hole
 
#19 ·
Feel free to look on web site your roof is at seal or global both same but diff supplier it will show u section . If company are being complete ***** I might be able to help but I'm near Heathrow . 26 years of window and conservatories
Thank you, I really appreciate the support and help you have given me. Just had a look at the global technical brochure and it makes sense how it's all constructed now and just confirms my suspicions that the fitter bodged the jobs to make it fit.

For example the conservatory was supplied with a wall rafter for the lead so that when the top cap goes on it looks neat and tidy. Whats the point if the rest looks like poo.

I see what you mean though at the end of the day, what matters now is how the glass sits in the rafters and the glass closest to the house is not level or equally positioned and the lead although re-done aesthetically looks poo. (which i'm hoping when i repaint the render will tidy it up a little) As for the Gap between the wall rafter and wall i'm guessing although not ideal my best option is to get them to pack it in and equally position the glass on the rafter?

CAB consumer advice said it's i have got grounds for poor workmanship and although i was reluctant to say who the company is I accidentally said the company name and they logged the call and said to call back if they give me **** and that my consumer right is if i need to get the work re-worked i have the right to use someone else and charge them for it so I'll be more than happy to pay for your time to drive up to me :mhihi: although it's not ideal for you, i feel like i'd owe it to you first for helping me and to get first dibs.

Gav, You don't happen to have any pictures of a conservatory where the house is partially rendered by any chance do you?

Hopefully, your advice should pull me through this stress and I appreciate the time you have already given me. I'm getting married in a few weeks and it's not something i really wanting to be dealing with at the moment :cry:
 
#17 ·
Lead work . Minimum splash upstand is 150 mill . When ie u get a square piece of anything it should when laid on the glass internally touch the edge of bar and the bottom or top socket ie be square imagine putting a square on ring beam it should then be perfect at the edge of bar . Ie square . If your really stuck I will pop (lol) round I’m Heathrow . I can sort anything mate
 
#18 ·
Lead height is not to protect leaks , if it is correct at any height it won’t leak . What it does as splash from water hitting Surface can bounce up on to wall above is stop damp . Even if u did not have a leak but house was plastered and cavity trays were not installed on pouruss bricks the rain splashes up above 100 mm lead hits wall then soaks through naturally creating damp . Hence 150 minimum . I use 240 or nine inch lead 25 mm into wall 30 mm into glazing socket still leaving over the 150 mininmum . Lead is very expensive hence the fact people cut 240 mm down the middle
 
#23 ·
Hi there
Firstly can I point out that the ring beam will and is correct to the size of the roof to allow for the 15mm of render difference to the house also the lead work looks ok on the wall rafters this is not where your problem is.
On your last pics the wall rafter cap does not look like it has been knocked in to place correctly.
The major concern you have here is as you have a glass roof fitted in a rosewood conservatory which over the summer months and warm weather will expand and contract which in turn will move the glass roof especially as there should be anti slip glass blocks fitted to all glass to bottom of every rafter left and right the little nylon l shaped block in your pic. This prevents the glass from slipping down also keeping all the glass level and correctly squared sitting in the same position after such events of expansion and contraction.
This brings me to the leaking roof you have from your picture with the glass block in on the left and silicone on the other side what the hell if these guys worked for me it would be there last conservatory they would be fitting.
Filling the end of the rafter with silicone seals the end of the rafter which should act as a channel to let any water capillary action or jetted in with hose to naturally flow back out into your guttering.
This silicone will be the reason why your roof is leaking through the rafter bolts as your pic your rafters are filling up.
My advice would be take all rafter end caps off to check if blocks are fitted.
If ends have been sealed with silicone then this needs removing and blocks fitting correctly which will need a complete reglazing of the roof to do it correctly. The rafter caps are aluminium which come off quite easily take one off and see for yourself they just knock back on when your done with a mallet.
Also another thing to point out you have active blue glass ! There should be no silicone at all near the outer coating of the glass as it will ruin it.
And 1 final point the manager is correct you should not be jetting the roof with anything like a hose your just driving water into it



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
#25 ·
Composed a letter

1 final point the manager is correct you should not be jetting the roof with anything like a hose your just driving water into it
Hi Daz, come on, don't you think thats just stupid? - I have a high level of logical common sense :lol: Just to clarify I used a hose pipe to spray high up in to the air and on to the house and used gravity to simulate rain. Does that clear why i mentioned that?

Hi Gav,

Using yours and Daz's advice I have compiled a letter which i will be handing over to the manager later.

https://spaces.hightail.com/space/fPJB3sVqz7

Please let me know if I've missed anything? other than I would like a refund :mhihi:
 
#24 ·
He only got it fitted nov so not had a summer yet . As said above all should have glass stops there left and right and when rafter cap is off. There should be a nylon wedge shaped packer which stops any left and right movement . They actually slides down between the glass and the glass stop u can see in your pic . If nuts are not tight then the whole bar can slide down . This has already happened . Internal trim won’t move as bolts drop through a whole in it . But bar can just slide down if bolts are not tight or bar was not being pushed up correctly in the first place
 
#26 ·
Had quick read , this proves my biggest fear . Glass is not fitting into roof correctly , ridge beads packing out from the wall at top to square up as I guessed . This will always cause issues on any square sealed unit . Siliconing doen bead onto glass is a bodge and will not adhere to active blue glass for long and as mentioned by daz damage surface layer which has an oil on
 
#27 ·
At a guess I would also bet that if a level was placed on ridge from inside it won’t be level the front will be lower . This again will be due to roof bein out of square . By pushing back out from wall at top ( ridge ) this will push front of ridge up . Correctly packing glass during installation will stop any movement in the future . Good luck
 
#28 ·
had a a very long meeting with the MD not the service manager and he was very keen on all of the points raised and acknowledged the problem and they will re-do the work and supply new parts (ring beam, bar, glass, lead) he was suprised (thanks to you both) that i was able to educate him about things such as using silicon on the active blu and squaring and flashing. he even called the fitter to stop what his doing and come over did he look worried is an understatement to explain why parts were missing, glass wasnt square and apparently he put a 3" lip on the leading and he used silicone on the top caps as a precaution lol i told him that every problem cant be resolved with silicone and that if there is a leak it needs investigation. The MD said he will reply in writing for my records everything we discussed that will make it right and us happy and genuinely think they will sort it out.

:D

Again i would like to thank you Gav and Daz will all my heart as it has helped to light up the dark tunnel i was walking through. ill be sure to buy you both a drink and and a meal when possible :smthumbup:beerchug:
 
#30 ·
Back to ring beam length . I agree survey on 15 mm to allow for render and as said above it’s fine but I have had jobs that require 100 or 50 mm . All trims internally r pre cut . Point I’m making is when I survey I would stipulate roof start point and a void to make sure trims fit
 
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