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MAD7BOY 18-07-2011 21:07

Oil Temps on Track c130'C
 
Went to Bedford with Dad on Friday for an evening session. Oil temp was hitting 125-130'C after a few laps (brakes etc still fine as I have big ones) but at that temp I thought I should probably have a cool down lap and come in because I think that's getting towards the limit of what the oil can take.

Those temps are measured at the oil filter using the OEM sensor point.
For reference it's normally 90-100'C when cruising the Mway (stabilises), then up to 115'C on a 'spirited' road drive (again, tends to stabilise), but up to 125-130'C on track after a bit (still looked to be climbing, so came in before I saw it stabilise.)

Car is an 8 FQ300 running stage 1 mods @1.7Bar(ish). It also has an aftermarket front bumper which I think is probably restricting airflow to the cooler. We made up a 'scoop' to sit behind the new bumper as the OEM scoop/guide had to be removed when fitting the bumper.

So, couple of questions then:
1. How hot can I safely get Silkolene Titan S 5w40 before I need to let it cool down?
2. What options do I have to deal with this? (Thicker oil probably not a good idea? New cooling guides (e.g. the HEL ones?) New oil cooler?) PS - I don't want to change the bumper, so lets work with that as a constraint!
3. If the conclusion is for a new oil cooler i) which one do people reccomend? ii) new or used? iii) something I can fit myself?

Cheers in advance for any assistance. :)

Phil2333 18-07-2011 21:14

I did see 120+ on track with 1.8 bar 390bhp on a standard cooler. (silkolene pro s)

Wasnt happy with hitting them temps so fitted a new mocal 19 row cooler and the max i get is about 110.:)...after say 6 laps

Never seen 115 on the road:eek:....but my sensor is in the filter plate.

Around 85-90 on the road.

super rover 18-07-2011 21:17

daft as it seem what about getting air OUT from the back of the oil cooler ,isnt there the washer bottle behind the oil cooler then the arch liner
may be venting the bumper like a TME or 6 GSR ,is something to look at

its all well and good getting cold air in but if its goes no where and the airflow stalls its wasted

MAD7BOY 18-07-2011 21:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by phil lloyd (Post 4045336)
I did see 120+ on track with 1.8 bar 390bhp on a standard cooler. (silkolene pro s)

Wasnt happy with hitting them temps so fitted a new mocal 19 row cooler and the max i get is about 110.:)...after say 6 laps

Never seen 115 on the road:eek:....but my sensor is in the filter plate.

Around 85-90 on the road.

How much was the mocal and did you fit it yourself?

Sorry, I got my description wrong, it is indeed measured at the filter, not the pump.

And yeah, when I was hitting 115'C on the road it was pretty intense driving on some very quiet roads I know very well.

MAD7BOY 18-07-2011 21:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by super rover (Post 4045343)
daft as it seem what about getting air OUT from the back of the oil cooler ,isnt there the washer bottle behind the oil cooler then the arch liner
may be venting the bumper like a TME or 6 GSR ,is something to look at

its all well and good getting cold air in but if its goes no where and the airflow stalls its wasted

It's been a while since I last had the bumper/arch liner off and I don't think there's a bottle behind it. (Screenwash is in the o/s rear boot and ICS is n/s front of engine.) But you've got a good point, the area of the arch liner behind the oil cooler is louvered plastic, but it may well benefit from reaming out the holes a bit. Great idea.

Phil2333 18-07-2011 21:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by MAD7BOY (Post 4045350)
How much was the mocal and did you fit it yourself?

Sorry, I got my description wrong, it is indeed measured at the filter, not the pump.

And yeah, when I was hitting 115'C on the road it was pretty intense driving on some very quiet roads I know very well.

Mocal was from demon tweeks...with the lines/connections etc...was about 200 quid ish.

Fitted it myself,bit fiddly.

There is space on the evo 6 for a 24 row,wish id of got one of them.

Mocal or HEL.:thumbup::coolsm:

As said tho,it might not just be the cooler.

phil-sparky 18-07-2011 21:27

what gauge are you using? i used to have a r spec oil gauge and that read a fair bit higer than my spa digital gauge i'm now using, you could maybe actually only getting 100c on track if your gauge isnt calibrated/accurate

thetyrant 18-07-2011 21:31

What are gauge are you using ?....ive seen very different temps with different brands of gauge even with sensors mounted in same place etc.

Difficult to know which was most accurate but as my ebay gauges read high and sometimes inconsitent ( gave me a fright going around brussels ring road on spa trip to see oil temp shoot up to 110c when normally about 85c!) i didnt trust them after that so got rid and took the plunge and bought a spa temp and pressure gauge which was always consistent and was more inclined to beleive it.

Bigger cooler will help as above :D

CHeers
Ian

super rover 18-07-2011 21:37

yeah a bigger cooler could help but if the gauge isnt showing the right temps in the first place it could make it worth less buying one ,id have said a spirited run around an curcuit should see the temps kept in cheak by the standard cooler

Phil2333 18-07-2011 21:38

Yep..twin s.p.a:coolsm::thumbup:

MAD7BOY 18-07-2011 21:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by phil-sparky (Post 4045372)
what gauge are you using? i used to have a r spec oil gauge and that read a fair bit higer than my spa digital gauge i'm now using, you could maybe actually only getting 100c on track if your gauge isnt calibrated/accurate

Quote:

Originally Posted by thetyrant (Post 4045382)
What are gauge are you using ?....ive seen very different temps with different brands of gauge even with sensors mounted in same place etc.

Difficult to know which was most accurate but as my ebay gauges read high and sometimes inconsitent ( gave me a fright going around brussels ring road on spa trip to see oil temp shoot up to 110c when normally about 85c!) i didnt trust them after that so got rid and took the plunge and bought a spa temp and pressure gauge which was always consistent and was more inclined to beleive it.

Bigger cooler will help as above :D

CHeers
Ian

Great minds, eh chaps?

The gauge I'm using is made by a company called 'Trailtech' and the model is 'Vapor'. It was sold as a digital dashboard for off road bikes/buggies, but it has some cool features which are handy in the car: Digital speedo, air temp, oil temp, 2 stage oil temp warning, rev counter, dual stage shift lights, and peak/hold function on speed/revs/temp.

I havn't managed to get the rev counter features to work, as I can't get a reliable rpm pickup, but the oil temp and speedo work just fine.
http://www.cyclebuy.com/shopping/tra...vapor-tach.jpg

I researched it online and then I bought it from a dirt bike shop. When I tested the sensor prior to installation (a couple of years ago now) the readings it gave in just boiled water seemed reasonable from what I recall.

Basically it's no 'ebay special', but of course I can't guarantee hot accurate it is either, because I've not had it out to test it recently.

I do have an IR thermometer gun now, so I guess I could go for a drive and then take the temp of the cooler, but not sure that would tell me much useful.

phil-sparky 18-07-2011 21:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by MAD7BOY (Post 4045404)
Great minds, eh chaps?

The gauge I'm using is made by a company called 'Trailtech' and the model is 'Vapor'. It was sold as a digital dashboard for off road bikes/buggies, but it has some cool features which are handy in the car: Digital speedo, air temp, oil temp, 2 stage oil temp warning, rev counter, dual stage shift lights, and peak/hold function on speed/revs/temp.

I havn't managed to get the rev counter features to work, as I can't get a reliable rpm pickup, but the oil temp and speedo work just fine.
http://www.cyclebuy.com/shopping/tra...vapor-tach.jpg

I researched it online and then I bought it from a dirt bike shop. When I tested the sensor prior to installation (a couple of years ago now) the readings it gave in just boiled water seemed reasonable from what I recall.

Basically it's no 'ebay special', but of course I can't guarantee hot accurate it is either, because I've not had it out to test it recently.

I do have an IR thermometer gun now, so I guess I could go for a drive and then take the temp of the cooler, but not sure that would tell me much useful.

should be pretty good then, have the temps rose over the years its been fitted or have they always reached 115 on a spirited drive, you could maybe try the heat gun on the oil filter house or on the sump to see if it gives a close reading think the cooler will be colder due to the air going through/ around it

pan1 19-07-2011 01:02

10/60 oil may help castrol edge i always found anything less for track work gets too hot too quick s..t a brick when using the same oil as you on track... although on cold days car needs a little longer to warm up with 10/60 !

MAD7BOY 19-07-2011 04:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by phil-sparky (Post 4045409)
should be pretty good then, have the temps rose over the years its been fitted or have they always reached 115 on a spirited drive, you could maybe try the heat gun on the oil filter house or on the sump to see if it gives a close reading think the cooler will be colder due to the air going through/ around it

The cruising temp has always been 90-100'C as measured by this, so I'm inclinded to believe the temps I'm seeing on track, which I think are also logically consistent with the restrictive front bumper and driving the car hard.

So if we proceed on the basis that I really think the temps are getting as high as the gauge indicates... what can I do about it?

So far we've come up with reaming out the holes in the arch liner behind the oil cooler. Anything else?

MAD7BOY 19-07-2011 04:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan1 (Post 4045547)
10/60 oil may help castrol edge i always found anything less for track work gets too hot too quick s..t a brick when using the same oil as you on track... although on cold days car needs a little longer to warm up with 10/60 !

I didn't want to go for thicker oil as it seems like it will be too thick when the car's not on track, which causes it's own problems.

I guess I could take some 10w60 and 5w40 to the track and change the oil at the start of the day to 10w60, then change back to 5w40 at the end of the day.

Not sure if I would fancy 'keeping' the old oil and swapping it back in/out, but using fresh each time would get expensive quickly, so getting a cooler looks like a more reasonable idea?

stevo_n 19-07-2011 06:32

I use Titan S, 5w40, just been to Nurburgring, 2 consistant laps 110c twice round the track, no higher, hard driving and very warm day.
I was told 120c is ok but anything more and its getting dangerous.
My tuner installed a new sensor after testing the orignal and finding it was 10% below what it should be. A new sensor now reads 80-82 on the motorway, where it should be imo, just below water temps.
I also have braided cooler lines and a 19 row oil cooler.

Check your sensor, also check how much air is available to the cooler as said.

plip1953 19-07-2011 07:17

Temps of 90-100 on the road seem very high to me. I may drive my VI pretty sedately relative to some of you, but I rarely see temps much above 70 degrees C.

And even in my TA car we don't see temps go much above 100 - although that is dry sump and has a biggish cooler etc.

straightliner 19-07-2011 07:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by plip1953 (Post 4045605)
Temps of 90-100 on the road seem very high to me. I may drive my VI pretty sedately relative to some of you, but I rarely see temps much above 70 degrees C.

And even in my TA car we don't see temps go much above 100 - although that is dry sump and has a biggish cooler etc.

They do to me as well , my 6 rarely gets over 90 on normal driving , and only around 100 when hooning on the roads

I suspect the gauge first

super rover 19-07-2011 07:42

any chance of a pic of the front bumper infront of where he cooler is

id have said this will be a major issue ,its had to see in the pic on your banner but it doesnt look good

martinw 19-07-2011 07:49

mine ran at 110 on track permanently and then last year it started to run high at the kind of temps you are talking about, changed parts on gauge etc and nothing happened, then one day on track the engine went. BE CAREFUL

i would take it to garage and get them to give it the once over just to be on the safe side

Deano_123 19-07-2011 08:05

the only time i ever saw 90 was sitting in traffic for 10 mins in the middle of summer, apart from that it was between 75 - 85 and never higher

i think i'd be abit worried to see 110+ on track

Ferg F 19-07-2011 08:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by plip1953 (Post 4045605)
Temps of 90-100 on the road seem very high to me. I may drive my VI pretty sedately relative to some of you, but I rarely see temps much above 70 degrees C.

And even in my TA car we don't see temps go much above 100 - although that is dry sump and has a biggish cooler etc.

:eek: I don't give mine any boost till the oil is up to 70 degrees :eek:

On track it sits at about 110~115.

wozzy 19-07-2011 12:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by MAD7BOY (Post 4045558)
I didn't want to go for thicker oil as it seems like it will be too thick when the car's not on track, which causes it's own problems.

I guess I could take some 10w60 and 5w40 to the track and change the oil at the start of the day to 10w60, then change back to 5w40 at the end of the day.

Not sure if I would fancy 'keeping' the old oil and swapping it back in/out, but using fresh each time would get expensive quickly, so getting a cooler looks like a more reasonable idea?

the oil you're using is one of, if not the best oil you can use in your evo. Address the other issues and leave the fuchs/titan where it should be........ in your engine!! :D

Nevolution6RSII 19-07-2011 13:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ferg F (Post 4045642)
:eek: I don't give mine any boost till the oil is up to 70 degrees :eek:

On track it sits at about 110~115.

Because your sensor is at the filter housing and his at the back of the engine/sump :)
There is about a 20 to 30 degrees difference between those two !!

Mine is at the filter too (sandwich plate) and when it's hot my Defi gauge says 100 degrees @ 140 Km/h (90 Mph or so) while it's around 90 degrees during the colder days.
Letting the car cool down (off boost driving) shows a difference too :

Winter : 82 degrees.
Summer : 90 degrees :(

I might have a look at those 24 row coolers one day... if it fits a VI why not buy one :naughty: :mhihi:

anttist 19-07-2011 13:40

I saw 135 C at oil filter sandwich plate at track with stock Evo 5 cooler. Now I have 19 row Setrab cooler (same as HEL) and sensor in oil filter housing and still see 120+ at track after just few laps. It might be the fact that Evo 5 doesn't have outlet at front bumper like Evo 6 does to help airflow. I have changed the oil cooler thermostat as well with no effect.

At motorway it can go up to 105-110 depending on speed. Normal cruising around 85-95.

I did not find any problems in engine bearings when I took it apart so I'm not that worried. Red Line 5W-40 must be doing it's job well.

GUM EVO 19-07-2011 14:29

With a stock oil cooler the temps you are mentioning are normal for very hard use... simple solution is upgrade oil cooler. However those temps soon drop if you allow cool off right?

Nevolution6RSII 19-07-2011 14:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by GUM EVO (Post 4045959)
With a stock oil cooler the temps you are mentioning are normal for very hard use... simple solution is upgrade oil cooler. However those temps soon drop if you allow cool off right?

In my case : Yep! :)

I don't think 19 rows will cool any extra by the way... I think the stock cooler is 19 rows too ?!

GUM EVO 19-07-2011 16:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevolution6RSII (Post 4045986)
In my case : Yep! :)

I don't think 19 rows will cool any extra by the way... I think the stock cooler is 19 rows too ?!

you will find the aftermarket oil coolers use a different style core and this is where the cooling advantage is from. A 19row is fine but bigger will obviously be better. I run mocal 19 row on my evo ix and installed myself at total cost 130... i didnt opt for braided line but got some decent rubber hose which is better than stock. Contact thinkautomotive as they have large stock and excellent customer service.

GUM EVO 19-07-2011 16:23

Some pics of my install... not the best install but a D.I.Y job and it is secure and functioning as it should:

The hose and fittings i used:

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l1...1/IMAG0081.jpg

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l1...350501-800.jpg

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l1...1/IMAG0077.jpg

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l1...1/IMAG0078.jpg

Tedlegend 19-07-2011 18:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by MAD7BOY (Post 4045314)
Went to Bedford with Dad on Friday for an evening session. Oil temp was hitting 125-130'C after a few laps (brakes etc still fine as I have big ones) but at that temp I thought I should probably have a cool down lap and come in because I think that's getting towards the limit of what the oil can take.

Those temps are measured at the oil filter using the OEM sensor point.
For reference it's normally 90-100'C when cruising the Mway (stabilises), then up to 115'C on a 'spirited' road drive (again, tends to stabilise), but up to 125-130'C on track after a bit (still looked to be climbing, so came in before I saw it stabilise.)

Car is an 8 FQ300 running stage 1 mods @1.7Bar(ish). It also has an aftermarket front bumper which I think is probably restricting airflow to the cooler. We made up a 'scoop' to sit behind the new bumper as the OEM scoop/guide had to be removed when fitting the bumper.

So, couple of questions then:
1. How hot can I safely get Silkolene Titan S 5w40 before I need to let it cool down?
2. What options do I have to deal with this? (Thicker oil probably not a good idea? New cooling guides (e.g. the HEL ones?) New oil cooler?) PS - I don't want to change the bumper, so lets work with that as a constraint!
3. If the conclusion is for a new oil cooler i) which one do people reccomend? ii) new or used? iii) something I can fit myself?

Cheers in advance for any assistance. :)

ive always run near that temp on track! apparently a good synthetic oil will take temps up to 150c:rolleyes: thats why i change oil after every track day but hey thats up to you?

super rover 19-07-2011 20:52

its all well and good fitting a bigger cooler but thing is you only having issue when out on track ,thing is if the coolers that big it may not allow the oil to warm up enough for general day to day use ,just a thought

james evo 19-07-2011 21:18

Millers 10/60 and Castrol Edge can handle 150c just a thought :smthumbup

anttist 19-07-2011 22:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by super rover (Post 4046516)
its all well and good fitting a bigger cooler but thing is you only having issue when out on track ,thing is if the coolers that big it may not allow the oil to warm up enough for general day to day use ,just a thought

That's why there is a thermostat in oil flter housing that opens around 95 degrees (I may not remember the temperature exactly) and lets oil enter the cooler. Below that oil cooler is bypassed.

GUM EVO 20-07-2011 02:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by anttist (Post 4046763)
That's why there is a thermostat in oil flter housing that opens around 95 degrees (I may not remember the temperature exactly) and lets oil enter the cooler. Below that oil cooler is bypassed.

:smthumbup

dimitrisviii 20-07-2011 19:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tedlegend (Post 4046310)
ive always run near that temp on track! apparently a good synthetic oil will take temps up to 150c:rolleyes: thats why i change oil after every track day but hey thats up to you?

+1
i always see 130-135 C even at winter trackdays which is normal for fully synthetic oils.
Just for reference all cars that have oem oil temp gauge the red line is at 140-150 c.(lancia deltona,306 rallye.m3 etc)Don t confuse the oil temp with the water one.Plenty of cars are working at+100 c the water.
I had research this subject and found that good 100% synthetic oils 5w40 are ok at 130 c,by oil factory datas.
Another point is that if you change gears a bit lower(ie 6600-6800rpm) you can see 5-7 c less than change gears at 7500 rpm(stock turbo evo8)

MAD7BOY 20-07-2011 19:55

Hi chaps, thanks for all the responses. I've been away with work so not had a chance to check the thread until today. So thanks to everyone who's posted.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevolution6RSII (Post 4045893)
Because your sensor is at the filter housing and his at the back of the engine/sump :)
There is about a 20 to 30 degrees difference between those two !!

Indeed, I think that the big temp differences quoted will be because some people are measuring at the filter plate, and others are measuring at the sump plug. If you're getting filter temps (130) at the sump, then that's probably a big problem!! So I think we need to make sure we're comparing apples with apples before worrying about the temps of some being significantly higher than others.

The main thin to focus on is that the temp on track is 30-40'C higher on track than it is on motorway, that's a big increase, hence my concern.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GUM EVO (Post 4045959)
With a stock oil cooler the temps you are mentioning are normal for very hard use... simple solution is upgrade oil cooler. However those temps soon drop if you allow cool off right?

The temps come down SIGNIFICANTLY when I run my cool down lap. At bedford the lap (southwest circuit) was about 1.5mins (estimate) and a cool down lap maybe 2.5min? Temps would drop from c130'C to c105'C in that cool down lap, so I didn't need to leave it idling in the pits for too long before shutting down.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tedlegend (Post 4046310)
ive always run near that temp on track! apparently a good synthetic oil will take temps up to 150c:rolleyes: thats why i change oil after every track day but hey thats up to you?

I think I need to get in touch with Opie or Silkolene to find out what temp the 5w40 can be run to safely. (I don't want to go to 10/60 as it would be too thick day to day.)
Quote:

Originally Posted by super rover (Post 4046516)
its all well and good fitting a bigger cooler but thing is you only having issue when out on track ,thing is if the coolers that big it may not allow the oil to warm up enough for general day to day use ,just a thought

As others have said, I think there's a bypass that allows it to get up to temp. (Of course using the gauge I can make sure the oil is warm enough before giving it boost!)

MAD7BOY 20-07-2011 20:10

4 Attachment(s)
Right, my Dad's very kindly taken some photos of the car for me, see below.

First is a comparison of the Damd bumper fitted to my car, vs a Stock E8 bumper. You can see the intake is much smaller.

Seccond is a ruler to show the size of the intake. I kind of hoped that although the 'hole' iteslf is smaller it does have a kind of recessed 'scoop' type shape which could funnel air across the bumper into the hole?

Third is the view of the rear of the arch liner, showing the existing holes we'll try to open up.

Fourth is the view behind the arch liner. You can see in this pic that when we fitted the bumper we had to get rid of the OEM air guide, which takes air from the bumper to the cooler, since it wasn't compatible with the new bumper. We fitted a custom air guide (aka a cut off from a plastic box!) to guide air. I think it works ok for day to day, but it's not good enough on track, so we could probably make this better, to reduce the amount of air that can leak past it.

We've come up with a few ideas to try (thanks to you guys!)
  1. Remove a section of the arch liner (cut a big hole behind the cooler to make a 'hatch') then hold this section back in with cable ties for day to day, but remove the whole hatch on track. [More air out]
  2. Cut a flap in the underside of the undertray ahead of the cooler. I'm imagining 3 cuts to make a square/rectangle shape with the 4th side still attached, and that attached side being towards the rear. This will make a flap I can fold down to 'scoop' air passing under the car to bring it in. (I like this idea as it will be cheap, and it doesn't involve cutting up the front bumper) [More air in]
  3. Fit a cooling guide/plate/something to funnel air more directly onto the cooler, to stop it going around the sides/over/under. [More effective use of the air we have]
  4. Remove a section of the front bumper (or make slits to peel it back) to open it up and allow more air in the front. [Even more air in, but at the expense of cutting the bumper]
  5. Buy a new oil cooler. [Even more efficient use of the air, but bigger cost]

In some ways I think that getting a new 19 row cooler (Cheers to HEL for the PM/Quote on that) would be the 'simplest' solution because it just needs to be bought and fitted.

HOWEVER another part of me thinks that the 'cheaper'/'free' solutions of making mods to get more air through COULD potentially be even more effective? (As in, a great cooler with crap airflow will still not cool well.)

Cheers for the ideas, I think I have a reasonable plan on how to proceed but any other thoughts/ideas are always welcome. Cheers again. :)

GUM EVO 20-07-2011 22:10

I think you won't see any difference other than maybe quicker cooling on your cool down lap. You are just at the limits of the stock cooler as most other evos experience the same temps as what you have seen when on the extreme limits. I believe the oil to be totally safe at those temperatures in all honesty and fitting a bigger cooler is your only option to bring your temps to optimum (100-120c).

Regards,
Gum

GUM EVO 20-07-2011 22:16

Also nothing wrong with the bumper it is designed too direct the air through those openings in a sort of RAM style and should have adequate cooling capabilities for your car.

MAD7BOY 28-07-2011 19:27

Right, I've had a pretty good quote from Ben at HEL Performance for a 19 row cooler with a cowl and air pipes.

I reckon I should be able to connect the two 76mm diameter air pipes to the rear of the two holes in the bumper. I may be able to use duct tape to get an air tight seal. This will mean that 100% of the air in through those holes will flow into the cowl and through the cooler.

Also plan to remove a section of the arch liner. Will cut a rectangle section and then hold that in place with cable ties whilst on the road, then snip the ties and remove the section whilst on track.

So in summary:
More air in? No I'll not be making the holes bigger or any new inlet holes.
More air out? Yes, I'll be making a hole in the rear to let more out.
More air through cooler? Yes, the cowl will mean that more air flows through the core.
More efficient use of air? Yes, the new cooler will have a more efficient core.

I just need to get the arch liner out and have a proper crawl under the bumper at the weekend to be sure of the section I'll remove, and ensure there's space to run the cooling ducts from the bumper to the cooler. (I'm sure there would be space as stock, but as the bumper is not stock and I already have cooling ducts running from near the intercooler to the brakes I need to make sure I can run round them.)

If all goes well I'd like to get something ordered at the weekend as I have another trackday in a couple of weeks!


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