Curious - How many of you have actually looked at your tuned ROM file? [Archive] - Mitsubishi Lancer Register Forum

Curious - How many of you have actually looked at your tuned ROM file?

D16Z6
12-08-2009, 10:08
Everyone has there prefered mapper and as long as the car comes off the rollers quicker everyone thinks the mappers done a good job. How many of you have actually looked at the rom file and done a little reading up on how to understand them and realised theres a few flaws in the map and it could be quicker/safer

grayw
12-08-2009, 10:28
Every car is different, along with the management system that maybe used (OEM/Motec/Autronic/EMS/Gems) etc. So looking at one ECU fuel map in AFR, would not be the same looking at one showing IPW, requiring a general knowledge of different setups.
Also what may look odd in the map may actually be required to get the car to run correctly. Take for example what use to happen when you hit the OEM ECU load cap at 380. The map looked odd, but need to be like that to ensure the engine did not run lean.
If you are talking about OEM ECU's, it's much better idea is to data log parameters the ECU uses, from this you can get a good idea of the state of tune. Combined with a wideband you have all the tools you need.
With aftermarket systems, the logging and mapping software does all the same things as you would use on the logging of the OEM ECU.

AndyF_RSX
12-08-2009, 10:50
There is a lot you can tell from a map and a lot you can't...

Purely looking at the numbers in the fuelling table as an example, really doesn't mean much until you get the car datalogged with a wideband lambda sensor.

In contrast, you can *usually* look at the ignition table on a map and tell if the car is likely to be causing knock etc. or how close to the limits it is likely to be without actually datalogging the car but again, until you actually run it then you don't really know.

However there are the 'oddball' maps that have things like block fuelling changes and wierd timing maps that are just strange :lol:

Andy

kikiturbo
12-08-2009, 11:49
what I find interesting is looking at the map ans seeing differences (or lack of them) compared to tthe OE map.. I have seen some interesting "remaps"...

AndyF_RSX
12-08-2009, 12:04
what I find interesting is looking at the map ans seeing differences (or lack of them) compared to tthe OE map.. I have seen some interesting "remaps"...You mean the 'remaps' that just remove the fuel cut feature and increase the wastegate duty cycles but keep std fuelling and ignition maps? If so then I've seen a few like that too ;)

Andy

V2AAA
12-08-2009, 12:18
.

kikiturbo
12-08-2009, 12:37
You mean the 'remaps' that just remove the fuel cut feature and increase the wastegate duty cycles but keep std fuelling and ignition maps? If so then I've seen a few like that too ;)

Andy


exactly.. .and I am talking about an ecutek remap.. :)

also, some funny changes in fueling etc..

V2AAA
12-08-2009, 12:41
.

grayw
12-08-2009, 12:46
There are many examples of this around, when I bought my car the first thing I did was remove the original tuner map. Subsequently this same map I've found on two other cars:(

burgers22
12-08-2009, 14:12
It would also be interesting to hear from those who have seen some really good tunner maps.

MB

grayw
12-08-2009, 14:29
How do you define good/bad? As Andy said there are some you can look at and they appear to be clangers, then you may log the car and find they are actually not bad.

One of the most common things to crop up is where there is a car fault and it's been mapped around.
Actuator's that are incorrectly adjusted or defective are very common, you tend to see massive amounts of ignition added around the spool area to try and compensate for the fault.

It would also be interesting to hear from those who have seen some really good tunner maps.

MB

D16Z6
12-08-2009, 14:35
Every car is different, along with the management system that maybe used (OEM/Motec/Autronic/EMS/Gems) etc. So looking at one ECU fuel map in AFR, would not be the same looking at one showing IPW, requiring a general knowledge of different setups.
Also what may look odd in the map may actually be required to get the car to run correctly. Take for example what use to happen when you hit the OEM ECU load cap at 380. The map looked odd, but need to be like that to ensure the engine did not run lean.
If you are talking about OEM ECU's, it's much better idea is to data log parameters the ECU uses, from this you can get a good idea of the state of tune. Combined with a wideband you have all the tools you need.
With aftermarket systems, the logging and mapping software does all the same things as you would use on the logging of the OEM ECU.

Stock ECU.
I'm definitely not hitting the load cap, unfortunately :)

I am datalogging, using evoscan.


There is a lot you can tell from a map and a lot you can't...

Purely looking at the numbers in the fuelling table as an example, really doesn't mean much until you get the car datalogged with a wideband lambda sensor.

In contrast, you can *usually* look at the ignition table on a map and tell if the car is likely to be causing knock etc. or how close to the limits it is likely to be without actually datalogging the car but again, until you actually run it then you don't really know.

However there are the 'oddball' maps that have things like block fuelling changes and wierd timing maps that are just strange :lol:

Andy

Timing seems to be all over the place, with big jumps in timing from cell to cell.
The fuelling map looks like the 'tuner' doesn't know what leanspool is.
And the mivec map, well, that is certainly interesting.


what I find interesting is looking at the map ans seeing differences (or lack of them) compared to tthe OE map.. I have seen some interesting "remaps"...

I can certainly believe this.

i been saying this for years

i had a better car with a boost controller fitted than i did with a 763quid map, by 1 of the best mappers in the uk :lol:

Again, I can believe this too.

It would also be interesting to hear from those who have seen some really good tunner maps.

MB

Somehow I think this would be a minority.
Many see this sort of stuff as a 'black art' so as long as the car is quicker after its been on the rollers, they're happy.


I guess the main question is, have any of the people recommending one tuner over another actually seen what they paid for?

grayw
12-08-2009, 14:38
I guess the main question is, have any of the people recommending one tuner over another actually seen what they paid for?

The problem with that is most don't want to know or even understand it, they want a piece of paper with numbers on it:D

D16Z6
12-08-2009, 14:48
Personally, i don't care about dyno numbers as they can be sprinkled with fairy dust to make people smile.
I like my car to perform best on the road, I don't tend to drive on a dyno. :D

burgers22
12-08-2009, 14:53
How do you define good?

Good power and AFR, with low knock and properly graduated maps, nothing more really.

MB

wip
12-08-2009, 15:01
Personally, i don't care about dyno numbers as they can be sprinkled with fairy dust to make people smile.
I like my car to perform best on the road, I don't tend to drive on a dyno. :D

I have seen mine.

I have road logs after a 'tuner' ecutek'd ecu, with a dyno printout.

I have logs after fiddling with it myself.

I then went to a different dyno, and came away wanting another go straight away.

After noting what happened on the visit, i adjusted my maps to suit, as a little experiment.

I dropped timing on my alt map by 1-2 degrees in the WOT area, which was VERY noticeable on the road.

Revisited the same dyno.

Due to knock the main map (road map) it made less power. (You can see the timing being pulled)
Again, with less timing on the alt map (dyno map) made the same-ish power with slightly less knock.

My main map doesn't knock more than 2 (occassional 3) on the road.

I have logs of the second dyno visit for both maps.
And logs for them both on the road.

An interesting little experiment for me, even if others find it a bit geeky :D

grayw
12-08-2009, 15:18
Personally, i don't care about dyno numbers as they can be sprinkled with fairy dust to make people smile.
I like my car to perform best on the road, I don't tend to drive on a dyno. :D

99% of people want power figures to quote, even if these are a peak figure and has no reflection on how the car actually drives. If you could compare drivability, then you'd have it licked.

Good power and AFR, with low knock and properly graduated maps, nothing more really.

Again fuel maps can be very funky on some cars, ignition less so. Try running det cans with knock control off and see how much more ignition you can add, it's a very worth while experiment:) see how much the midrange improves. This is the nice now John has made the knock control adjustable. (P.S. Be careful:smthumbup)



I have logs of the second dyno visit for both maps.
And logs for them both on the road.

An interesting little experiment for me, even if others find it a bit geeky :D

The dyno/road map is a good example. I've mapped the same car on both and can say 100% a road tune on an OEM ECU tends to knock (real or not) on a dyno. You would not see this difference on an aftermarket ECU.

Oracle
12-08-2009, 16:32
Everyone takes the dyno as gospel, whoever says they don't are liars lol

Looking at a map tells you little, datalog will explain better. Poor mods choice, unhealthy engine will make the map look bad.

kikiturbo
12-08-2009, 17:08
The dyno/road map is a good example. I've mapped the same car on both and can say 100% a road tune on an OEM ECU tends to knock (real or not) on a dyno. You would not see this difference on an aftermarket ECU.


we had a dyno pull competition recently.. some fords (2xsierra cosworths and one escort cossie) came, that were obviously mapped on inertial dynos..... and realised that a maha eddy current dyno was to be used at competition... furthermore, the pulls were done with a lot of load on the rollers, so the pulls lasted very long.... theresult? all of them were 100 HP short of what they thought, and one left home with no big end bearings left.. :)


for mapping my car I use a straight piece of road nearby, usually 3rd and 4th gear pulls.. and I always thought my maps were conservative and that I did not get all the boost I wanted and my EGT's were on the low sige (hence there was some room for more timing and less fuel + more boost..)

then, I took my car on the track, and our circuit has some very long full throttle secitions where you go trough 4,5,6th.. and took a log of a couple of laps only to see that my boost in 4th, 5th, and 6th was perfect, EGT high enough etc.. so I still have some room to experiment but my map worked flawlessly on the track... and more importantly it was safe enough...

some cars tend to have different ignition maps for each gear... a fast sweep in second will tolerate much more advance then slow full throttle acceleration in 6th..

grayw
12-08-2009, 17:34
some cars tend to have different ignition maps for each gear... a fast sweep in second will tolerate much more advance then slow full throttle acceleration in 6th..

Same map just different load areas. The transition from say 2500 rpm in 5th at a low load, then crossing to a high load where ignition advance is reducing normally causes the most issue.

robc fq320mr
12-08-2009, 17:52
hmm loving the block mapping!!

Tedlegend
12-08-2009, 18:03
The problem with that is most don't want to know or even understand it, they want a piece of paper with numbers on it:D

well said who cares about how much power you got!

its about how smooth and driveable your car is, right through the rev range :smthumbup just like mine:D

sponners
12-08-2009, 19:22
butt dyno works better than any rolling road:D

wip
12-08-2009, 23:27
butt dyno works better than any rolling road:D

:)

I like the VDR posted on evom, not 100% accurate peak figures-wise, but the gains are noticeable.

Another method I use is a timed 3rd/4th gear run, on the same stretch of (private) road, TPS 100% at the same point.

See how long it takes to go from xxxx RPM to xxxx RPM on the logs...

burgers22
13-08-2009, 07:34
Try running det cans with knock control off and see how much more ignition you can add, it's a very worth while experiment:) see how much the midrange improves. This is the nice now John has made the knock control adjustable. (P.S. Be careful:smthumbup)

Thats my plan now I have made a set of det cans. Where do you sugest fitting the listening end of the cans?

MB

grayw
13-08-2009, 08:30
Where do you sugest fitting the listening end of the cans?

Middle bolt of the inlet manifold. I would also suggest getting someone else to drive while you are doing changes etc.

AndyF_RSX
13-08-2009, 08:36
Middle bolt of the inlet manifold. I would also suggest getting someone else to drive while you are doing changes etc.But that takes the fun out of it :lol:
There's nothing quite like driving with a set of det cans on listening for det, looking at your laptop for an AFR reading, your datalogger for ignition timing figures and racing a GSX-R750 at the same time :D :D

Andy

grayw
13-08-2009, 08:41
But that takes the fun out of it :lol:
There's nothing quite like driving with a set of det cans on listening for det, looking at your laptop for an AFR reading, your datalogger for ignition timing figures and racing a GSX-R750 at the same time :D :D

Andy

I know you can cook, hover, talk on the phone at the same time, but isn't that taking the multi tasking thing a little too far:mhihi: If your misses ever reads this post, she will have you washing the floor, shopping online and gardening as well:D

freefly
17-08-2009, 10:08
just out of interest what does detonation sound like through the cans?

burgers22
17-08-2009, 10:14
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=KNOCK+ENGINE&search_type=&aq=f

grayw
17-08-2009, 11:26
just out of interest what does detonation sound like through the cans?

Bit like a click, you would recognise it normally right away.

jimn
17-08-2009, 11:51
Bit like a click, you would recognise it normally right away.

I always think its quite easy to recognise as its out of time with the engine sound. People always fret but as gray says - you will recognise it!