View Full Version : PE Air Ducting Kit
Just ordered a brake cooling set for my Mak.
You can view it at <a href|EQU| http://www.powerengineering.co.uk target|EQU| _blank ><!--auto-->http://www.powerengineering.co.uk</a><!--auto--> in the Mitsubishi section.
Looks a decent piece of kit, if a bit pricey! Hopefully I will get it by weekend to fit it before Oulton next Tuesday.
I will keep you all posted on the difference it makes.
Claudius K
13-09-2001, 16:55
That's way too expensive for what it is!!
Evilution
13-09-2001, 17:33
Kev,
I knew you wouldn't be able to resist when I posted you that link:)
Kevin.
scoobymike
13-09-2001, 18:17
Kevin G.
hope you're happy with your discs. Additional cooling will always help so my car is at my dad's garage where he will fit his selfmade ducts.
Best regards
Mike
Hunty
I thought you had sold the car ?
Dave
No, it's still in my garage! I would never sell it without replacing it with another Evo of some description!:)
Like many other owners I have spent way too much money on it!
It is being retired from company car life in November when I am buying it off the company. I can then maximize it for track day an occasional use.
Claudius
The kit is expensive but it is aluminum which apparently is expensive to manufacture. I want to test the fit on the car and it's effectiveness. Then if it works all the other Evo loons living in the north of England can retire to their sheds at night and nock something similar up!:)
The standard ducts on the car are shat, deflecting any air directly into the road!:(
Kev
Yep it's all your fault, that's another £300 you just cost me!;) Hope to have them fitted for Oulton Park.
Claudius
Do you have a cheaper solution.
David
Claudius K
14-09-2001, 10:22
Well, you can always duct some air to the brakes with a plastic tube, or using a tumble dryer tube and adapt it to the plastic part that goes down to the road etc. I will also have to talk to the aluminium specialist company whose former manager I talked to yesterday. They specialise in bending aluminium tubes etc, so maybe one day I will come to this board and sell brake ducts and intercooler pipes for normal prices...
As a temporary solution, I will try and fit some tube there, I'll let you know how I get along.
oli goon
14-09-2001, 13:51
Claudius,
have you already removed the dust shields?
Sorry if you've posted this before but i can't remember the answer.
RS (electronics distribtion compnay) do a nice selection of aluminium foil on wire ducting in various sizes. This is rated up to 95'C so should be OK for most automotive use. I am thinking that with a bit of this, a few tie wraps and the removal of the dust shields, air flow to the brakes would be substantially improved.
The PE kit looks good but its alot of money.
Evilution
14-09-2001, 16:15
Hunty,
Happy to oblige :)
I'll keep my eye out for anything else!
Kev.
Claudius K
15-09-2001, 11:30
Oli
My dust shields are still on. The wheels get SO dirty already (plus you know they are white, like yours :)) but I might try that as well.
scoobymike
15-09-2001, 14:21
Finally I've got around to make some brake ducts. Together with my dad we made air scoobs which look like the ones on F1 cars:D. We've fitted them on the backside of the calliper and constructed them in the way to even create a ventury effect. Then we prolonged the air ducts in the front bumper. Now my sole fear is that the pads cool down too much between the corner. As soon as I get the chance I make some fotos and post them. Looks very racing car style. Hope in connections with the movit disc and the ceramic Pagid pads I cured my warping problem.
Cheers
Mike
Claudius K
15-09-2001, 14:54
Did you connect them to the existing hole in the front or did you cut it open or did you stuff the hole and make the tube go in there just before? How was getting around the oil filter etc on the left side?
Fitted the PE kit last night. A total doddle even for a 'pen pusher' like me!:)
The nearside is the easiest to fit, the offside of the car also contains oil cooler, oil pipes, oil filter etc which you have to route the piping around.
Full track test at Oulton Park tomorrow!
Michael K
17-09-2001, 07:54
Scoobymike,
can you post a pic of what your ducts look like? Could become part of my winter-project....
Michael,
They are sold by Power engineering! Pictures are on there website.
Clive.
Michael K
17-09-2001, 12:09
err, Scoobymike made some himself, I think....
Sorry Michael,
I'll read the messages properly in future:)
Guys,
Damn, what can I say, PE's brake ducts are crap. I installed them and spend 1 lap on the Ring last weekend in the rain, guess what, I warped my brand new group N discs using cut down mintex pads :(. That was 411 pounds down the drain. Imagine this, ####ing down with rain on sunday, no hard braking at all and already warped discs. I'm gonna rip it off and use the hoses for my vacuum cleaner ....
I was on the Ring (sunday) with 3 other EVO's and 2 skylines, where were the other guys! I met a crazy Frenchman in a black TME. He managed to spin his car 3 times and got away without hitting the barriers, he must be one lucky guy or one hell of a driver. I assume he was lucky coz on each corner he was on the inside while the racing line was on the outside [img]http://www.lancerregister.com/graphics/Wilk.gif border|EQU| 0 align|EQU| middle >.
One disappointed Belgian angry at PE.
Jan.
scoobymike
17-09-2001, 14:14
Hi Michael
as soon as I've got the time I'll make some pictures. Hope my mate can scan them in.
Jan
did you exchange the hubs and bearings before you fitted the new discs? Currentyl I'm still bedding in my movit brake disc kit. Yesterday in the rain the bite and modulation even with the Pagid RS 14 was far superior than with the standard discs. It's much less noisy and the brake feel is the same as on the porkers I've already driven.
Cheers
Mike
Michael K
17-09-2001, 15:42
Jan,
I would have come down to the Ring but we were supposed to move into our new flat, which didn't happen cause as we entered the flat to do the inspection with the estate agent we found out that the promised new carpets weren't there yet, so we couldn't move in. I was very píssed off to say the least...
Jan
<blockquote><hr>Damn, what can I say, PE's brake ducts are crap.<hr></blockquote>
On what basis do you make this observation?
I would suggest that your set up would have warped regardless of you having the ducts or not.
If you have a good set up to start with, the ducting will aid the cooling of the brakes which is what I want to achieve. I have 6-pot AP's and they still get very hot and the pedal gets 'soft' but they do not warp, hopefully the cooling ducts will allow me to stay out a few more laps.
I will know by this time tomorrow, anything is an improvement on directing the ducted air into the tarmac, as the original Makinen ducts do.
Hi Kevin,
I installed new bearings, brand new Group N discs and new Mintex cut down pads and PE brake ducts. I made sure everything had time to adjust and payed attention to running-in procedures. After 1 lap on the Ring I warped my discs, what makes me angry is that it was raining and I did not ABUSE my brakes at all, I only braked once from 250km/h down to 120 hard, only once, not multiple times …
I’m angry with myself that I listened to PE as they promised (more guaranteed) me a perfect solution for the Evo’s braking problem. How can an air stream give sufficient cooling on a metal disc that turns blue from the heat, how many degrees is that, no clue as I’m not a mechanic. Bottom line (I think), I need to buy better quality discs/pads/calipers that absorbs heat better.
I probably donate the same money I paid for the ducts to GreenPeace as I will throw the kit out of the window.
My 2$ here,
Jan.
Claudius K
17-09-2001, 20:07
Jan
Sorry to hear about this. Sounds really bad :(
I fitted the Project Mu discs, well, you know, CTF, and am running them in, almost done. Before I spend horrendous amounts of money, I will try this. With Pagid RS 14 pads (Made in Germany, what are you doing with Mintex? ;)). MAXI hasnt warped them although he got them brighter than a lit cigarette end several times. I will keep you posted on what's going on. The calipers look pretty serious, I dont want to change them if not necessary.
raven
you did everything right it s not youre fault youre setup was perfect
but those standard discs can not take the heat
go for some movit discs or CTF one wich claudius uses ask the misses for some extra money and go for it
f..k those brembo buggers
regards
andre who has the same problem as you WARPED DISCS
Claudius, Mike,
I appreciate and trust your judgment on heavy road use with your brakes, however, when talking about heavy track ABUSE, it’s another level. And in my conversation with you guys (always educational/enjoyable/fun) I understood you don’t have much of that track experience that is killing brakes. Therefore I’m only going to spend money on a brake-system that survived a hardcore track guy driving his EVO on a heavy-on-the-brakes track, the Ring isn’t.
Hunty,
If you’re getting a soft pedal feeling with standard brake lines on your AP’s then you’re definitely not using your brakes hard enough. I did 4 ABUSIVE laps in SPA with standard brake lines and pushed my pedal right to the floor after the fourth lap :(.
So, where are the hardcore track guys on this board that found a solution? Hopefully it’s not the one where I need to buy AP’s 8-pot combination.
Thanks,
Jan.
Raven,
If your brake pedal pushes to the floor after using the brakes hard, this will not be caused by the hoses, unless one split! It sounds like boiling brake fluid. Changing hoses to braided will definately improve pedal feel though.
Hi Clive,
It’s a combination of boiling fluid and the standard brake lines getting heated that they expand just a little bit causing the pedal to drop to the floor. Believe me, I’ve done 3 years of endurance racing on bikes. Steel braided hoses will never expand, on the other hand the standard once …
Jan.
raven/hunty -
Brake ducts can only do so much! It is a combination of elements that will give you a warp free/fade free/boiling fluid free brake system for track days. My car is used only on track days.
The AP 6 pot 330mm setup, with grooved discs, carbon metallic pads, goodridge hoses, castrol SRF fluid
with AP 4 pots at the rear.
I brake like a *******! I am so hard on the brakes...
If anyone can tell me how, I will post a picture of the drilled AP discs that were destroyed by my braking (and the heat the carbon metallics produce) in under 200 miles.
Now, it took the grooved discs and the PE ducts to keep the heat down. Also the Castrol SRF will stop the soft pedal. At the end of a track day (150 miles|PLS|) the pedal is just a little softer than the start of day.
What I can tell you for sure is that I needed the PE ducts to stop the discs overheating. I used temperature paint to test this on several track days.
To be fair to PE, the ducts will more than likely stop warping on a non-track day car (as many owners on this board don't do track days). If you track your car, you need to spend the money on better brakes I am afraid!
Hope this helps.
Claudius K
19-09-2001, 22:43
Jan
Have you changed the fluid and hoses? I guess you have. What fluid are you using? I got some Tarox fluid, same as MAXI, boiling point is 330 C.
I used the standard fluid on a small special stage type back road in France, with braking hard every 5 seconds from 90kmh down to 60. The brakes were gone after 7 kms (some of it uphill), fluid boiling and calipers dark brown colour. You've seen me pick up my car new, it was just like that before we took that road, brake for 5 km and that's it.
Keep your cooling ducts, cant be worse. Get grooved and cross-drilled discs with separate alu bowl (and hoses and pads if you dont have them) and try it.
For SERIOUS track use, I would just get the AP 8 pot LC setup. Remember you need 18 inch wheels for that though. If that warps, try the WRC :D I was quoted 9,800 EUR for this setup.
thanks Blade, thanks Claudius, I probably go for AP 330 mm then.
Hello Raven,
Maybe I am a hard-core track guy: I only drive the Evo on the Ring (pretty fast laps and a lot of them; and the Ring is hard on brakes!). I don't get passed much.
I have already given the solution to our brake problems a few times: a complete Mov'it (front and rear!) kit made up of 4-piston MONOBLOC GT-3 calipers. All for only DM 8400,-!! If you want, I mail you a pic of the discs after ca. 50 hard laps on the Ring. They still show no signs of abuse.
The system is so good that a racing team (24 Hours at the Ring) will use the same setup on their Evo 7 for the next season.
N.Ring,
That is what I need, stupid me I did not read your comments before. Yes, please send my pics from your 50 abusive laps on the ring. (janv@redback.com). Where can I buy those?
Thanks,
Jan.
Claudius K
20-09-2001, 18:55
So is the ring hard on the brakes or not then?
Claudius: come and find out!
Claudius,
Forgot to answer your question, yes, I changed fluid and hoses ...
The RIng, in comparison to other tracks and in my humble opinion NOT, there aren't really places where you brake from max speed down to 80; actually there are 2 places where you reach around 250 but slow down to 120-140, but that's only twice on a 20 km lap .... It's hard on the brakes for drivers that don't really know the track as most corners are blind corners, and therefore most of the first time visitors don't get their feed of the brakes :). If you've driven in Assen/Spa/Hockenheim you will know the difference, but this is my opinion. I'm sure other people will say different and if they think different, I want to hear good arguments :).
Cheers,
Jan.
jan youre right
but if you know the ring a little bit and you are on youre way to the lowest section on the track (breitsheid) youre brakes are really hot
regards
andre
Claudius K
21-09-2001, 16:44
Jan
I would rather get the Ap 362mm kit than the 330mm.
But these are just the worst two upgrade options. There are LC 6 pot and LC 8 pot. The 6 pot come either in endurance (200 C temp) or rallye (100 C) spec. The price difference between the 6 and 8 pot is so small I would go straight for the 8 pot. Remember there is a radiator for the cooling system. Not sure if this has water spray, but it can be done.
Have you already connected the A/C to the PE ducts or not?
Claudius, Only the standard 6 pot calipers have dust seals - the others aren't suitable for road use according to AP. Track use, fine, as long as you clean/dissassemble them after each session. They are only really suitable for competition use.
The idea of 8pot water cooled calipers is nice, no?
What do people think of the idea of fitting a brake fluid recirculator? Seems sensible to me, but most tuners think it is a waste of time.
Claudius - what do you want to plug your AC into the ducts for? You should remove it to save weight, and all that ice :D :D
You might stand a chance of catching Maxi up then....!
Claudius K
22-09-2001, 15:56
Very funny blade! [img]http://www.lancerregister.com/graphics/tongue1.gif border|EQU| 0 align|EQU| absmiddle ><!--e4-->
Just got back from Bruntingthorpe where I got to shake down my EVO for the first time since June!
The new braking setup is fantastic. AP 330mm front with 6pots and Pagid RS422 pads, and AP 4pots on the rear on standard mitsi discs, with Pagid pads, Ralliart master cylinder bracket and PE ducts - goodridge hoses, Castrol SRF fluid.
Awesome, awesome, awesome. The car was on the track more or less continuosly for 5 hours - no fade, no problems. Best of all was how quickly the car came on and off the brake, allowing great adjustability, and making it easier to balance the car on the brakes.
I'll say it again - awesome!
Blade
Is your car a GSR??
Your solution looks promising - Please keep us all informed of your progress.
Blade
Is your car a GSR??
Your solution looks promising - Please keep us all informed of your progress.
It is an RSX - which is essential a GSR without AYC and ABS, standard A/C and different Recaros - other than that, it is the same (gearbox, elec windows, etc.)
scoobymike
25-09-2001, 18:34
As some of you might know I'm still developing my own brake ducts. This isn't as straightforward as one might think. Now after studying the PE construction one question has come to my mind. As the air scoob which is fitted directly on the calliper has a straight intake for the hose it could probably touch the CV boots when turning. Has anyone checked that? Would be interesting to know.
I haven't finalised my design but we're getting there. I'll keep you posted.
Mike
Hi mike - I haven't had any problems with my kit... and I turn alot on the track!
Claudius K
25-09-2001, 22:03
So what if you do not have dust seals on the calipers, blade? Do you care?
Your choice Claudius - it just means that after 100 miles or so you will need new calipers.
Your choice mate, but AP categorically state that calipers without dust seals cannot be used on the road.
Where is the page for the PE air ducting kit ? I cant find it on the PE webpage anywhere.
Thanks
Also, what do you mean by the Makinen directing the ducted air onto the tarmac ? Are you referring to the pencil-like opening ?
Can someone explain ? Thanks again
- ron
Did you actually look? :) When you go to the site, pick Mitsubishi and there it is on the index page. Here is the link.
//http://www.powerengineering.co.uk/mitsu/index.htm
Thanks
I was looking under Mitsubishi. :)
The PE duct seems to be a good idea.
Does anyone know what that left side round hole in the Makinen bumper does ?
Thanks
oli goon
02-10-2001, 11:27
Ra29,
It directs air towards the air intake. However the pipe stops before it reaches the inner wing. There is a bit of a hole here between the inner wing and the indicator and battery tray but its not large and I can't see it having a great deal of effect. I am currently reviewing what to do with this on my TME. The obvious thing would be to fit some ducting onto the air box inlet as long as water ingress could be stopped somehow. However this would require removal/hole cut in part of the inner wing and having only just got my motor I'm reluctant to take an angle grinder to it straight away.
All in all given the large numbers of vents of the front of the car most of them seem to be pretty much a waste of time i.e brake vents aimed at the ground.
AndyF_RSX
02-10-2001, 12:26
Oli,
I know this thread has now got away from brake ducting but the inlet air ducting can be fitted to a TME without any problem and linked up to the vent at the front of the car. It's a fairly simple job to remove the original air intake to the airbox (1 mounting screw I think) and this leaves a nice big hole in which you can put the ducting through into the wing and fasten it onto the vent in the bumper.
I know that LeeLegend did this on his TME this weekend without too many problems and if he can manage it then anyone can, eh Lee [img]http://www.lancerregister.com/graphics/tonguewink1.gif border|EQU| 0 align|EQU| absmiddle ><!--e5-->
I've done a similar thing on my RSX but I've used one of the pencil ducts to supply the air into the wing because I've got spotlights in the other holes.
Speaking of the pencil ducts, on the RSX, one duct faces upwards into the wing (this is the one I've used for the air intake) and the other pencil duct faces down onto the road. Bizarre!!!
Andy
Claudius K
02-10-2001, 17:27
Blade
Why do you need new calipers after 100 miles just because they do not have dust seals?
RA29
The hole on the left hand side of the TME doesnt do much. There's a little plastic tube going upwards inside, length about 6 inches.
I cut this down to 3 or 4 inches and put some ducting tube on it, fastened with a small plastic collar and directed the tube at the air filter.
The little plastic part that looks as if it were directing air at the air filter is a joke, it just goes from one end to the other. Throw it away. This is obviously for cars that do not have the OEM air box. Car feels a little bit better mid range with this.
Claudius,
Dirt and grime will get into the caliper pistons themselves, damaging them or rendering them ineffective. Best thing is to talk to AP about it - I too wanted the 8 pots (water cooled), but they said no-way, if I want to use them reliably on the road.
oli goon
03-10-2001, 14:13
Andy,
Thanks mate. I had the indicator off last night to look better at this area and saw there was a large hole in the inner wing as you describe. Has anyone had problems with sucking up water into the air box?
AndyF_RSX
04-10-2001, 09:46
Oli,
Not had any problems with sucking up water but my ducting doesn't connect directly to the vent, it just hangs into the space in the wing and this means that no water will ever get up there. This works fine for the standard airbox but if you've got an induction kit then it would be best to connect the duct directly to the vent and put a box around the filter and connect the ducting direct to the inlet on the box so that a positive pressure is generated in the box that will help feed more air into the intake. This might be when water becomes a problem but I wouldn't expect too much water to be pushed all the way up the ducting to the filter.
Andy
P.S. You could always ask Blade what his car is like because with the Grp A airbox that connects to the NACA duct, you can't escape getting water into it (especially with the amount of rain in this country). I wonder what arrangement is on this box to prevent water getting into the intake.
Just looked at the brake ducts on the bumper.
Seems like the hole is to drain any possible water out and isnt meant to direct the air onto the ground.
There are little rectangular holes cut in the wing beyond and above the hole and seems to direct the remaining air to cool off the brakes.
So, the air would flow into the brake ducts, pass over the hole, go up , through the rectangular hole and kind of cool off the brakes. Is this right ?
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