OE Brakes!!!

[SuperL]

I was wondering just how many Evo6 owners were having Disc Warping problems? I am on my 3rd set of discs (now fitted with Group N discs) and now they have started juddering after 800 miles!
Does anyone know the reason for this?
Is there a cure?

[Evoboy]

I'm feeling left out of this brake thing , over 6K miles on my VI GSR still on original disc's and pad's , and apart from slight sqeakage in traffic no brake probs at all.

Do I need to drive even harder than I do now to become promoted to the warped disc rank [img]http://www.ltregister.f9.co.uk/graphics/happy1.gif border|EQU| 0 align|EQU| absmiddle ><!--e1-->

[chestnut]

I have an EVO VI which suffered from severe warping at low mileage. Discs were skimmed and once again after 800 miles warped again. After fitting the AP six pot brakes to my Imprezza I was tempted to go that route, although the expense is prohibitive. I've just fitted a set of AP direct replacement discs which feature a seperate bell. After speaking to AP, this should cure the problem. There are currently sets of discs out for appraisal with EVO VI owners featuring Grooved discs. AP will have results on these shortly.

What I cant understand is why my 993rs with single piece 322mm discs and Brembo four pots all round never has a warping problem even though the car is used on track days with Pagid orange pads.

I for one would like to know why the OE brakes are so poor.

[Bloodaxe]

I'm on my third set of discs too. Every 2,500 miles they start to go, and I hang on in there to 4,500 before getting them fixed.

I don't drive like a looney. I don't brake like a nutter. So why me?

[SuperL]

It would be great if anyone who has suffered with this problem could reply to this thread. I am thinking that if we can get enough responses, we can try and piece together (with the help of AP/Brembo/Ralliart or whoever) exactly what the cause is and find a permanent solution.
For me, it the ONLY thing that has spoiled 18 months of ownership of this car and I would really like to find the reason behind it and then a fix.
The latest Group N Virgin Metal discs have just covered 800 very carefull miles and I have been over-cautious in making sure the brakes discs are brough up to temperature carefully. Prior to this I have had the original discs skimmed twice, and replacement discs skimmed twice.....


Thanks

[BLUE6]

I think it unlikely that AP will make an offical comment on the Brembo problem. This could cause all sorts of legal rangling. I have contacted Ralliart who said we are not aware of an adverse number of customer's who's car suffer from this fault . I can only presume they are talking toilet judging by the number of comments on this site alone.

In my opinion, due to poor design of the whole front brake system, warping is a very real problem. What is most annoying is the number of owners suffering this problem during normal road use.

The problem will not be cured by skimming or replacing the standard discs the only way of resolving the situation I have been advised is to go for a two piece disc. I think it unlikely that Ralliart will pay for this mod. to all our cars!! My AP disc upgrade cost over £500.

What a shame such a superb car has this achilles heel. It would certainly be interesting to forward our findings to Ralliart for their comments.

[Evilution]

There are something like 10,000 Evo VIs in existence - the majority of these are in Japan. Anybody any idea whether this problem exists in Japan? The number of vehicles that experienced brake problems would be much higher, they would also have potential resolutions for the problem. Anybody with contacts? Mind you, the Japanese don't drive as hard as the Europeans, witness the AYC debacle!!

Kevin.

[chunky]

SuperL

Alan Zini of Dragon Motorsport is actively trying to find a solution to the VI brake problem. IIRC he's on the 3rd prototypes now and has nearly ironed out all the bugs.

Do a search here for dragon and you should find out the current state of play

[A de Vries]

It s very strange because the rally team were i bought my car they have no prob with warping at all they drive with standard disc and caliper and use pagid rs 14 brake pads very hard pads

i Warped three sets of discs now i bought a set of dragonsports discs i hope this is the solution if not 6 pot ap kit if not that 8 pot wrc brembo calipers with discs only the caliper cost 1500 pounds each have a nice day[img]http://www.ltregister.f9.co.uk/graphics/happy1.gif border|EQU| 0 align|EQU| absmiddle ><!--e1-->

i can send pictures of the dragonsports discs if you want

A. de Vries

[New_Toy]

My OE pads warped too after about 3,000 miles (more or less unprovoked by lunatic driving)- Ralliart have coughed for a skim on the discs, which are now v. noisy but don't wobble.

I've doubled my braking distances (from 10 to 20 yards [img]http://www.ltregister.f9.co.uk/graphics/wink1.gif border|EQU| 0 align|EQU| absmiddle ><!--e3--> so hopefully this will help.

If not, I'll have to think of something else!

Chris

[New_Toy]

oops I meant discs - I don't think I managed to warp the pads [img]http://www.ltregister.f9.co.uk/graphics/happy1.gif border|EQU| 0 align|EQU| absmiddle ><!--e1-->

Chris

[learner]

I've just coughed up for AP's all round due to three sets of warped fronts (two being the crossdrilled variety) and also two sets of warped rears!!! Still running them in but initial experiences are superb. If anyone is interested, i'll post further info after bedding in and an airfield day.

[BLUE6]

Learner, I'm about to go the same route as you, where did you source your kit from and did you go for 6pots for the front? Oh how much did it cost?

[learner]

The cost - ouch, £1821 for the fronts (six pots, rotors and bells), £1055 for the rear calipers, new original Brembo rear disks but had them x-drilled to match the fronts (£388 total) then £34 for AP fluid and £224 for fitting. I chased AP to see if they have replacement rear disks but on mine (Evo V) the rears include the handbrake system. Apparently there is a competition set-up for the rear but this involves rebuilding the calipers etc every so often.

Parts were sourced through ABP Motorsport and all fitting was done (excellently) by them.

Only down side - had to wait six-eight weeks for AP to machine, paint, build calipers etc as they do not carry stocks. Up side is that i specified AP Racing in yellow to be put on front and rear calipers (but this may be standard anyway). Oh, and they ARE superb!

Ralliart do carry stocks of the front set-up but they seem to be charging Porsche prices for them as usual.

[BLUE6]

Learner, I've just been quoted £1468 for the front six pot kit from my supplier. Your price seems high. I've just warped my AP two piece OE replacement discs so I'm going to get the AP kit sorted ASAP.

Interesting technical note: The main problem with the OE Brembo set up is due to the depth of the pad relative to its size, a difference in temperature occurs over this area causing the warping. I run an engineering company and have measured the run out with a dti and its about 3 thou. on my warped AP's. Thats 0.0762mm deviation across the disc surface.

[learner]

Ouch again! Does that price include the dreaded VAT and is is genuine (Ralliart quote over £2K)? Who is your supplier, if it's not a secret? If that's the price you can get then a few others here on this forum may well be interested.

[BLUE6]

Learner, I will contact my supplier on Monday, and providing he'll do that deal for every customer, I'll post the details on Monday. This is for the 6Pot AP Formula kit and rear caliper kit that's listed on their website www.apracing.com

[Whiteshark]

I have a Ralliart Evo 6 which I bought from new and has covered 21,000 quite hard miles. I have never had any problems with the cars brakes. I tell a lie, except for replacement pads through Ralliart which cost £350|PLS|vat for the frnt and 280 for the rear. Don't worry I contacted Brembo direct and got them for £80 for the front and 50 for the rear.

Do these warping problems happen after the car has been modified with an increase in BHP?

[Claudius]

Over 3000 miles with my 6
no brake problems
I dont think they're good though

Whiteshark: as long as you do not have over 400 bhp I don't think it makes much of a difference to the brakes. The wheight difference between a RS and amp; RS2 or GSR is probably more relevant o this issue.

[Bloodaxe]

Whiteshark

My car is completely stock (apart from leather interior!). And my brakes warp every 2,500 miles.

Judging by the comments of warp versus unwarp, it must be something to do with driving style. But there still seems to be no consistency - some of us grandad drivers warp, some racing loonies don't, and the other way round too.

BTR in Castleford reckon part of the problem is small hub size and big disc amplified the smallest warpage which would be OK on any other kind of car.

[maxi priest]

can someone explain this ap two piece discs with grooves everything is ok when cold when the discs are getting hotter the discs warp more when the discs cool they warp less if you check the discs when cold they are in execelent shape


i don t know anymore

[Redfive]

By way of advice (or warning if you want to see it that way) I know of a guy who had a full AP setup on an Supra that cost £ plenty. 1st time out at Cadwell they cooked-up warped, and he had an early bath !

I have no personal experience of AP (except that they are used successfully by many racing teams) but I have heard of people spending money on AP and then being disappointed.

[Sweet]

You EVO VI users have one serious problem! This problem goes deeper than most realize. The experiences of a friend of mine with his VI have made me scratch my skull more than once. He is on his sixth set of discs now! (20.000 km of which many were driven on Assen and Zandvoort circuit)

Me, as a user of AP braking system, first on an race tuned Alfa GTV-6, a tuned Cosworth and later on a Subaru GT Turbo, have let me realize that AP is capable of manufacturing very nice braking systems. Only after prolonged heavy duty use, have my AP discs started to warp. When this friend of mine ordered his set of AP discs for the EVO we thought he had countered the braking problem (and believe me, there is one). It took him only some km's on the track to realize that the AP's also had gone to warp heaven. From other EVO users over here in Holland I have heard the same stories.

About people who say they have no problem whatsoever. Impossible! You don't know what heavy use is. Use your system light, and it might outlive your car.

BLUE6, you might have countered the problem already. Indeed, not only is the shape of the pad not the most preferable, the caliper itself seems to be moulded from one big chunk of steel unlike the thin shaped beautifully manufactured AP calipers. Mitsubishi has been saving money here, unlike on other mechanical stuff, which is top notch. Also the OE 32 mm disc (like the caliper too thick) holds heat too long.
And then the shape of the front spoiler and the position of the caliper at the front of the wheel. Might it perhaps be so that there is a vacuum around the calipers which obstructs it even further from losing heat? I am absolutely thinking along this way. If this is so, no disc whatsoever will do. If an AP can't do the job, no system can do the job.

As I said before, you heavy EVO VI users do have one big problem. I hope you counter it soon.

Hielke Kerstma

[Claudius]

Yes, I think you're right, the cooling is the main problem. APs might resist longer, but not long enough on the track. So what can you do? Bring a little air thru a little tube to the wheel or sthg? Or get water cooled calipers? Should we ask AP for the price for 10 sets of water cooled 8 pot brake kits?

[Dunc]

You could try drilling some holes in the disc splash gaurd, if you look at the Evo VI rally car the splash gaurds are almost a mesh. The disc draws air in though the eye of the disc if there is insufficient air supply here it may not help the problem.

Dunc.

[Sweet]

Claudius, indeed, what can you do?

Professional help is the best way to go. Simply replacing the standard disks by others, better , ones, won't do the job. The many reactions have made that all too clear. Assisting the system by cooling it (air) in some way can never be a bad thing to do.
How are the people doing with the complete AP systems? Do they encounter any overheating, or warping problems? Or might this ultimately be the only way to go?

[A. de Vries]

i have put a hose under my car so cool air goes into my braking system it always helps

i hope i can mount the dragondiscs next week

i keep you posted

A. de Vries

[SuperL]

All
Thought I would update you on the progress of my warping problems. I met with Darren Hughes of Mitsubishi today (who is a TOP Bloke by the way) and he confirmed that there was indeed a problem with the car. However on closer inspection it looks as if the one of the hubs itself is out of true, thus causing the disc to run untrue and causing Judder. The discs (both to be on the safe side) will indeed have to be skimmed but we are both hoping this will go some way into solving the problem. When the car was stripped, it was easy to see why there is so much discussion about the small hub size versus the diameter of the disc - The SMALLEST run off will eat a set of discs in no time.
Wonder if the Evo 7 hubs are bigger or indeed it will too suffer this problem....
I also heard today that there is a guy out there that spent 2 grand on some 18 Super Ts to accommodate the almost 2 grand AP set up and they too have warped after 1500 miles if this is true - OUCH!

[SuperL]

All
Thought I would update you on the progress of my warping problems. I met with Darren Hughes of Mitsubishi today (who is a TOP Bloke by the way) and he confirmed that there was indeed a problem with the car. However on closer inspection it looks as if the one of the hubs itself is out of true, thus causing the disc to run untrue and causing Judder. The discs (both to be on the safe side) will indeed have to be skimmed but we are both hoping this will go some way into solving the problem. When the car was stripped, it was easy to see why there is so much discussion about the small hub size versus the diameter of the disc - The SMALLEST run off will eat a set of discs in no time.
Wonder if the Evo 7 hubs are bigger or indeed it will too suffer this problem....
I also heard today that there is a guy out there that spent 2 grand on some 18 Super Ts to accommodate the almost 2 grand AP set up and they too have warped after 1500 miles if this is true - OUCH!

[Maxi]

Where can you buy 18 super ts for mitsubishi?