AP Brakes

[madtuner]

Hello All
Just fitted AP 6 pot with 362mm grooved discs with Z rated carbon pads - looks good!

Mark

PS My Brembo calipers are for sale, let me know if anyone is interested?

[A. de Vries]

362 mm discs thats not a standard road kit thats 6 pot and 330 mm discs

keep the brembo s if you sell the car you can put those back on just a tip

[Evolution]

Madtuner,
Where did you get those brakes? what was the cost? did you need 18 ´to fit?
thanks,

[Madevelopments]

Hello All
You need 18s to fit brakes cost £1,995 which I can supply would need to try a wheel on my car to make sure they fit
Thanks Mark

[Maxi]

What kind of 18 wheels do you have for the evo vi?

Do you have pictures of the kit fitted?

[Madevelopments]

Maxi dont have any picts will be at rr tomorrow with evo,wheels are Raceline RL7

[Stan EVO6]

hello Madtuner,

I have a very important question.

As you can read all over this forum, everybody is having trouble with warped disc's. My opinion is that the Brembo braking system is NOT OK. it is rubisch in fact.
I have tried everthing myself, nothing works. So now I am thinking of buying a AP 6pot braking system.

My questions:

did you change the HUBS to???
is the problem solved now, can you brake like hell and everything remains OK???
can you conferm me that it is the Brembo system that fails afterall, and that the warping has nothing to do with the suspension or other designs of the EVO6????????
are you a happy EVO driver now??????

waiting for your repleys..

Stan from Holland.

[TTZZ]

Hi all,
As a scooby owner with brembo disks and a lot of brake judder, it seems to me after reading this topic, that there were some more people complaining about this brembo stuff.

Some help about brakes.
Brembo has some major quality problems with their disks.
As example,
The brembo disk, 305 x 28 Grooved Disc - Gravel Rally/N2 Front 09.5192.15,
http://www.bremboracing.co.uk/car/disc.htm as used in the SS brembo kit is a poor quality disk.
Unfortunately this was discovered by a lot of users.
The Impreza is a judder sensitive car, so with a little DTV (Disk Thickness Variation), the car starts to judder.
When using a low quality disk these symptoms will occur rapidly.
It was mentioned earlier in the scoobynet forum, if there is a lot of residual stress in the disk after cooling down during the
manufacturing process, then during braking, the disk will show deformation in forms of unequal heating and DTV will occur.
The only solution is to use a high quality disk.
http://www.apracing.com
http://www.movit.de

Using larger wheels 17 18 makes the car more judder sensitive.
Lighter calipers makes the car also more judder sensitive.
This can be read in the documents below.

All about brake judder. Some technical stuff, have fun.
http://www.ornl.gov/publications/labnotes/oct96/brakes.htm
http://www.aero.rmit.edu.au/wackettCentre/postgrad/projects/AlexRodriguez/
http://htm29.ms.ornl.gov/rsuc/rotor.html
http://www.imeche.org.uk/auto/international_braking_seminar.htm
http://www.mvd.chalmers.se/~heja/publications.html
http://www.linktestlab.com/FEV1.htm
http://www.linktestlab.com/FEV2.htm
http://www.ultimategarage.com/bbfaq.html

A nice homepage with some more information about disks.
Performance Friction Street Rotors
http://www.performancefriction.com/Technology/StreetRotors_files/v3_document.htm

Performance Friction Race Rotors
http://www.performancefriction.com/Technology/RaceRotors_files/v3_document.htm



Although Brembo has some quality problems with their disks, they have a nice site about how to maintain your brakes.
MAINTENANCE by Brembo
http://brembo.progettointernet.com/Eng_ist/5R.htm

DETERIORATION by Brembo
http://brembo.progettointernet.com/Eng_ist/5R_dete.htm

Some time ago I've sent this item to the scoobynet, I'll think that some of you will reconize it.

Regards Jan-egbert

[MADevelopments]

Hello Stan
I did not change hubs I have done over 1,000miles with them I was going to test them at cadwell last week but was to busy so no track days to test them yet they have been vgood on the road with no sign of shake so Im still happy with them
Thanks Mark

[HHsix]

The Brembo system is fine apart from the discs and pads, the calipers, the major part of the system is fine. The hubs being soft doesn't help but that will effect any system you decide to fit.
My system seems fine now with the Dragon discs and cut down Mintex pads and at a 3rd of the price of an AP system.
Of course you pays your money and takes your choice.

[Stan EVO6]

howdi Mark,

thanks for the repley, glad to hear you are happy with the AP 6 pot.
Let me know what happens after one track day. I'm waiting for the final tests results from AP, the are testing with a different disc now, larger bel smaller braking surface. when that will not work i'm absolutely going to buy a AP 6 pot set. But then I must be absolutely sure that this AP 6 pot set will do fine under any circumstances.
Please keep us informed about your experiences.

Thanks.

Stan.

[Claudius]

So the standard 6 pot kit comes with 330 mm discs but you can get bigger ones like 362 mm? Will this be much better? I mean will there be enough room for cooling? OK they fit if you use 18 inch wheels, but what about the cooling?

[Stan EVO6]

my opinion is that there is only one good disc, no-matter the size, and that is:
the bell must be as large as possible, leaving a small stroke of braking steel provided with grooves or holes. the bell must be made of a different material than de braking surface. the bell WILL control the disc and carry the heat away. bells with slots or floating bells are not neccesary for road use.
Look at any race car and you will see enormes bells and very small braking material. the calipers are also long but very thin.
the standard Brembo calipers on the EVO are much to massive. ( when the stop making those things the steel industry will cut down in jobs drastically) the standard discs, made of poore material, (recicled steel or whaste products) are way to thick, the bel is to small and the braking surface to large, the heat can go nowhere. Result: Problems.

So you can put any diameter on your car, depends on the demands and money you have, but follow the rules above.


greetings.
Stan


ps. Contact AP,, the are testing with several EVO's now. the have one of the best braking system made in the market.

[andre]

Guys i Swap my brembo for 6 pots if this goes wrong i park my car at the BMW dealer for an M3

regards

andre

[Stan EVO6]

André,

then I will follow you, but I will buy an M5 so that I will be a little bit faster then you, just like it is now.
love and kisses

Stan.

[Claudius]

Hey guys

I hope you are joking! I tried the new M3 last Tuesday. They had a test car going round the dealerships in France. It's still fun, slides a lot if you disconnect the DSC, but it's just not fast. 1st gear is good (shorter), second is just OK, forget about the rest. After I pulled 1st, 2nd and 3rd to the limit, in 3rd gear at around 6000 rpms, the clutch started slipping, the car went wouuuuaaahhhhhiiii to the limiter and I had to let go not to burn the remainders of the clutch.

I had a 3,2l M3 last year and I can tell you that it's not meant to be driven on the limit, and I can prove it: I burnt the clutch, broke the rear axle transmission and had to change the gearbox (GBP 2500). Also needed a new flywheel, all happened at 50,000 kms, bought the car at 35,000 kms from a tuning guy who fitted very low springs (totally inefficient) and just drove it on the highway...

My ma likes the M3, maybe she'll get one. Probably the right car for her. [img]http://www.ltregister.f9.co.uk/graphics/happy1.gif border|EQU| 0 align|EQU| absmiddle ><!--e1-->

[andre]

thx

no M3 for me
the evo 7 is the way to go then

regards

andre

[raven]

I agree with Claudius, no M3 my friends. Last weekend on the Nurenburgring I saw 3 crashed M3's (latest model) and I raced one and left him standing. No idea if it had something to do with his driving abilities, but bottom line, I saw him in front, 30 seconds later he disappeared in my rear view mirror. Beamers are for hairdressers, never forget that [img]http://www.ltregister.f9.co.uk/graphics/Happy.gif border|EQU| 0 align|EQU| middle >.

[Stan EVO6]

6 pot AP,

Andre and I heard that the first AP 6 pot Braking system has been warped. Is that true, does anybody know something about that. Because when this is true we have big problems guy's, then there is something wrong with the car itself. I can tell you, than nothing helps.
Please let your ears do some work and try to find out if this story is true and lets hope it is not or lets hope the guy in question abused his 6 pot. ( you can distroy everything).

greatings,

Stan.

ps. I brought my M5 back to the dealership and wait for a refund. Ha ha ha ha .

[Michael K]

I think this brake fading stuff is getting out of hand now. Stan, I don't think that there is anything wrong with the car, as it has been doing rather well in Group N for years and years. Also, like you said, you can break anything. If someone warped an AP 6-pot, then he must be one careless person. It seems to me that there is one group of people that warp their brakes all the time (fast or slow use) and another group of people who never warp their brakes, but don't drive any slower (in the case of Cadwell actually faster). I don't think it's the case of all the people that warp them having a secret bad batch of brakes, but that it has more to do with how you treat them. Maybe all of the people that warp their brakes are mutants with the right leg of a Soviet weight lifter?? [img]http://www.ltregister.f9.co.uk/graphics/Wilk.gif border|EQU| 0 align|EQU| middle >

[daved6]

Michael K

The point your making would apply to all cars not just the EVO 6 , ie every car club has good and amp; bad drivers dont they ? and we do see large number`s of similar power / weight cars on the circuits , but it only seems to be the E 6 which suffers this warping problem to such an extent other cars suffer from fade which is due to overheating but there not constantly warping them.

I personally think that there is an inherent problem to this brake set up which needs to be resolved , dont forget this car was designed to cope with a lot more stress than us mere enthusiasts can apply , [ left foot braking disc`s glowing red hot ]

I noticed at castle yesterday that tommi`s car on the display stand had a floating disc set up ie the rotor is not bolted direct [ solid ] onto the alloy bell which allows movement between the rotor and amp; bell to stop distortion , perhaps ralliart should sell these at cost to replace the standard items

Just my thoughts on the subject as its costing me a FORTUNE in brakes.

Regards Dave

[HHsix]

Did you also see that the Evo 7 has exactly the same brake set up as the E6 including the discs. I don't know about the hubs though. Good thinking to look at Tommi's motor!

[Claudius]

Let s do a group purchase of say ten AP brake kits for our cars.


The kit I propose includes the following:

- 4 18 inch magnesium wheels so the kit will fit. They are also lighter than the standard wheels, approx 3 kg per wheel. I suggest Speedline 2120 wheels (11 spoke), available in gold, silver and black.
- 2 large cross drilled and grooved discs that will cool down better (drilled) and enhance braking (grooved). They need to be bigger than the ones that come with the AP kit (330mm), say 362 or more. They should not be too big to be able to cool down.
- 2 AP 8 pot water cooled calipers that will not heat up too much on the track for the front
- 2 6 pot calipers with 330 mm discs for the rear
- custom made tube - pipe that brings air to the disc to optimize cooling. The air could be taken from the front bumper inlets at the lower outside ends or underneath depending on Evo model.

Let me know what you think!

Oh, and I am serious about this.

[Maxi]

Claudius,

I think that you need some sleep!!!

Not that the 8pot calipers aren't a good idea,off course,but they will need a bigger disc than the 362 as the 362 is made for the bigger 6 pot caliper.

Ok,you will have your brand new tommi makinen edition next week,and you just can't stop thinking about the upgrades for it,but try to wake up a little,because if you hesitate on the special parts you should fit on it for weeks and months as with the evo vi,believe me,
You don't need the ap brakes!!!

By the way,when you fit your 2,2L jun kit with bozz speed turbo kit,don't forget to keep your standard exhaust to get more low end[img]http://www.ltregister.f9.co.uk/graphics/biggrin1.gif border|EQU| 0 align|EQU| absmiddle ><!--e13-->!

[Claudius]

Maxi!

I said 362mm OR MORE. You need some cooling space there, YOU KNOW what happens if you dont.

Sorry you cant afford the brake kit, but dont get nasty, just brake earlier (as usual) [img]http://www.ltregister.f9.co.uk/graphics/biggrin1.gif border|EQU| 0 align|EQU| absmiddle ><!--e13-->

Who's in on this with me? Any serious late braking wealthy people out there?

[andre]

8 pot watercooled calipers are 1500 pounds each
brake pads only competion pads available
you always need 18 inch wheels

ohhh bell brake disc and bracket and hooses not included in above price

ohh i did not win the lotery yet

have a nice day

andre
going sideways

[Claudius]

Andre

I am sure we can get a great reduction on that price if we buy 5 or 10 kits or so. They will probably make the pads you want if you buy a few of these kits!

Oh, and stop going sideways, there are no wipers on the side windows and the weather is not that good right now...

Claudius

Not accelerating, not decelerating

[Michael K]

Daved6,

dont forget this car was designed to cope with a lot more stress than us mere enthusiasts can apply , [ left foot braking disc`s glowing red hot ]

that's exactly my point. Group N had some problems initially (years back), but not anymore. This is info that I got from a real WRC mechanic, who builds rally/racecars and goes testing with Tommi and amp; Co.. They had problems with left-foot braking putting too much stress on the discs, but like you said, not one enthusiast will be in the same league. They don't have any big problems now, or as Dave Sellens said: the brakes are not the weak point of the car. He has no knowledge of an inherent problem, and something like that would be discovered in rallying. Maybe there is something weird that happens to the brakes in everyday use, but my guess would be still what I've said all along.

[Blow Dog]

I would imagine the majority of the problem stems from the fact that we expose the discs on our road cars to much wider temperature bands than they do at rallying.

On the road, we are constantly stop start and we never reach the kind of constant temperature that a rally car would achieve. Its again down to the consistent heat levels of brakes which determine their longevity. Progression being the key. If brakes are subjected to the same temperature over and over, then they would last a lot longer because the varying extremes of red hot and stone cold brakes on our road cars is actually quite harsh and potentially damaging to discs because of the constant expansion properties.

Cem

[Blow Dog]

There was a guy at Castle Combe this Saturday with the AP kit on bothe the front AND rear. Anyone know who this is? Was a silver 6.

Cem

[Adrian]

just a quick point. I've warped the usual stuff and have Dragon's fitted now, which stood up quite well to castle combe, apart from serious fading at the end of the second session (harder pads needed me thinks). Anyway I was told by someone a while ago that the rally guys don't warp discs, because they change them after each event, and thereofre only use the discs for a short time. My group N discs warped after about 1500 miles, so would easily have lasted for a rally. Anybody got any views/knowledge on this?

Adrian

[raven]

Adrian,

You're correct, most of the rally teams (local in Belgium) I spoke with do that. They swap the discs on every opportunity, even between sessions. For them a disc is very cheap and not worth loosing time/energy in looking for better stuf.

Jan.