View Full Version : Which AP Discs ?
After going thorugh numerous disc and pad combinations (at great expense) over the last 18 months or so of owning the car,
I've decided to throw the towel in and go the AP 6 pot route. Question is, which discs should I go for? Cross drilled, grooved
or both drilled and grooved? Useage is fast road and occasional track days. I've got the car booked in at RC for next month
to have them fitted together with Pagid blue pads and their recommeded fluid.
Grooved only , the drilled ones wear unevenly at an alarming rate from what I`ve seen
Interesting. Apparently they fit drilled ones by default. Anyone else got any comments on this please?
Personally if I was going to fit discs with cooling holes in them I would only use ones that have the holes cast in them when they were manufactured. If the holes are drilled through the disc this will cause stresses in the material around the holes and cause possible cracks to occur extending from the perimeter of the cooling holes.
I would use the grooved discs.
Which is exactly what happened with the Dragon 2 piece discs I have currently. Do the AP discs have cast holes?
Claudius v1.4
17-03-2002, 14:01
No, AP are cross drilled.
Porsche discs (and Movit ;)) are cast during manufacturing.
grooved, if you want to see how bad the drilled discs can get go to my web site and look. <a href|EQU| http://www.evoblade.com/brakes.htm target|EQU| _blank ><!--auto-->http://www.evoblade.com/brakes.htm</a><!--auto-->
scoobymike
17-03-2002, 15:27
Thanks Claudius
It was a close shave. I almost wanted to write something about Movit but I was afraid of being banned;) as non-paying member and foreigner.
Cheers
Mike
Claudius v1.4
17-03-2002, 16:47
LOL :)
Yeah, foreign bastärd tolerance has gone down here. You can tell by the fact that they do not even reply to what you say.
But then again, you are Swiss, the highest standard of living in the world, so you must be a bastärd anyway and your answers become irrelevant and will be ignored. Why dont you fück off anyway?! :D
AP are English and therefore these brakes are the best. Just shove those Movits up your äss! :D You piece of cheese!
Scooby mike - I have decided to get rid of my APs and get Movits instead a they are far superior.
Claudius
My AP`s are ready for replacement as worn out ( no grooves left in the rotors :D ) can you explain why I should use Movit instead ?
Claudius v1.4
18-03-2002, 02:30
I never said you should! Discs wear is normal, replace with Ap material if that is what you have. I'm not sure Movit discs are available in the right size (although they might be).
Please remember that Movit discs are made by a Kraut subcontractor for Porsche in Krautland. Surely not something you'd want to buy! Their cars are proof enough that heavy doesnt mean good! :D
What you SHOULD HAVE DONE (just to #### you off) is got the 362mm kit (unless that's what you've got) from AP. They have a different caliper from the 330mm kit. Therefore, if you have the 330 mm kit, you cannot upgrade discs to a bigger diameter and are basically fücked! [img]http://www.lancerregister.com/graphics/tongue1.gif border|EQU| 0 align|EQU| absmiddle ><!--e4-->
Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot: the 362mm kit isnt available for the Evo (although some people have it). (Funny, huh?)
[img]http://www.lancerregister.com/graphics/tongue1.gif border|EQU| 0 align|EQU| absmiddle ><!--e4-->
I have to say, after looking at the material spec and manufacturing process, the Movit discs look far superior to the AP cross drilled discs.
And after driving a GT3 last week I can tell you the brakes are awesome.
scoobymike
18-03-2002, 16:18
Sorry for my late response but was enjoying nice girls, ah cars at the Geneva show!
Claudius
unfortunately I'm not so different from the UK guys they live on a island as I do;) literally spoken!
Maybe I could try to shave an AP 6 pot calliper up my ass as it's slimmer than a Movit Monobloc one! Would hurt less I guess!
Just let me come back to the topic quickly before I go on! The Porker discs have a thickness of 32mm, the standard AP only 28mm so they won't fit anyway.
Clive
this Saturday I'll get my rear Monoblocs fitted. Will uprate the pads to Pagid Orange as a track day is lurking around the corner! I destroyed my standard disc with Mintex F4R when braking even later on the Ring than the GT3s. Went blue so they obviously had a bit too much heat! And calliper brown!
Tony
you almost took me in! No way[img]http://www.lancerregister.com/graphics/tonguewink1.gif border|EQU| 0 align|EQU| absmiddle ><!--e5-->
Cheers
Mike
Claudius v1.4
18-03-2002, 17:21
<blockquote><hr><font size|EQU| 1 >Original Post:</font><!--1-->
Claudius
unfortunately I'm not so different from the UK guys they live on a island as I do;) literally spoken!
Maybe I could try to shave an AP 6 pot calliper up my ass as it's slimmer than a Movit Monobloc one! Would hurt less I guess!
Cheers
Mike<hr></blockquote>
es it's slimmer, but isnt it heavier¿ Think about unsprung weight! :D
scoobymike
18-03-2002, 18:30
Claudius
you're absolutely right. Didn't think about that maybe the MLR dudes have already brainwashed me during their fight to protect the forum from non-UK products;)!
Cheers:D
Mike
Well thanks all for the comments on this one. Blades photos were quite interesting and look exactly like my current Dragon discs !
Anyway, I phoned RC and they told me they use both drilled and grooved and have had no problems whatsoever. On their advice
I'm going along with it and can't wait now to have decent brakes for a change. Roll on track days :D
doggerdonuts
05-04-2002, 00:48
The cross-drilled discs that AP sell for road use are drilled for appearance, not performance. Originally, all of their road kits used grooved discs because a) they were cheaper, b) they were quieter and c) cross-drilled discs were already going out of favour in the racing world. Then, AP's distributors complained that they needed cross-drilling to help sell the kits (styling reasons).
AP developed a new radiused cross drilling, which was quieter and less prone to cracking. All their road kits now use this drilling, often combined with grooves. The drilling does very little to improve bite, and even less to prevent fading. It is there for show.
Competition cross-drilled discs have far more holes with chamfered edges to create a very agressive bite. However disc life is very limited, and now they are scarcely used (look how many WRCs use cross-drilled discs - none).
Having said all of this, AP Racing 'road kit' discs are made of the same alloy as their competition discs, so they are still a quality product. However, I would stick to their grooved discs, without a doubt.
Finally, I don't agree that cast cross drilling is better than the machined alternative. The reason that Porsche cast their holes is that machined drilling is expensive. They get round this by casting the holes, this is mainstream production mentality. AP can't do this because the casting that they use for Evo kits is also used for umpteen other kits (of varying disc sizes) so they need to put the holes in different places.
Is anyone still reading this?
My conclusion: AP Racing road kit discs are made by the same people who supply half the F1 grid, as well as half of the WRC cars. Their products are thoroughly developed, and their track record speaks for itself. Just steer clear of drilled discs. If you are not getting enough bite from grooved discs, try a different pad material.
Paul.
In fact, for those that still have the standard caliper, the best discs are probably the ctf ones with separate bell.
Then for those with the road ap 6 pot 330 mm kit, whithout any doubt the best choice are the grooved ap discs.
About the brake kits for the evo, I've seen the movit kit on Ian's tme, and I agree that the quality of the caliper and the disc is very good, and probably better than the quality of the ap racing road kits, and Claudius said that the high speed braking power is better than the standard brembo. But still the movits are very expensive and are not bigger than the standard brakes, when at the same price you can get 6 pots from ap. I've also seen some new 6 pots calipers from tarox, they look realy got and tarox is much cheaper than the others, but I don't know how they work.
At the end, If you want to upgrade your brakes, my first choice would be an ap racing 6 pot with 362mm grooved discs(but you need 18 )as I thing that a bigger disc make a difference.
If you want to keep the standard 17 , the movit are probably a better choice for the quality, but the stopping power should be about the same as the ap 6pot 330mm.
Doggerdognuts,
Finally, I don't agree that cast cross drilling is better than the machined alternative.
You know nothing about metallurgy then?
scoobymike
07-04-2002, 07:34
Yesterday I attended a track day at Anneau du Rhin in France. The Movits were fantastic, no fading, pedal feel always constant and the discs still look like new. Not even the holes are covered with brake dust. I could even outbrake some Clio Cup Cars on Slicks. I still run the GT 3 sport spec pads. Even with those relatively mild pads my mate on slicks didn't have any problems in connection with the Movits. The problem were my standard rears which I warped with using Pagid RS 14! When giving passenger laps first thing people mentioned were the stopping power and the late braking points.
Everyone of my mates including myself who uses the Movits hard on track is absolutely convinced about them. Wear is minimal on discs and pads.
I've now covered around 5000km hard road and track use with those brakes and they perform faultlessly. I'm very happy with my mainstream brakes with cheaply made discs. Strange that Ralliart and the private EVO teams use the same brake kit for their race cars for the 24h races at the Ring and the whole endurance series.
Cheers
Mike
Mike, think you should ammend your statement to say: Strange that Ralliart and amp;lt;b and amp;gt;GERMANY and amp;lt;/b and amp;gt; and the private and amp;lt;b and amp;gt;GERMAN and amp;lt;/b and amp;gt; EVO teams use the same brake kit for their race cars for the 24h races at the Ring and the whole endurance series. i.e. German guys using German brakes, not really surprising is it? Same with British guys using British (AP) brakes....
:D
Keep trying Mike!
scoobymike
07-04-2002, 09:30
Tony
I don't try, I just pass my findings on to the interested. I know you aren't one of them.
Cheers
Mike
I know Mike, but I do enjoy ribbing you ! All in good fun :D
If Movit had a decent dealer, I would probably have bought them too, especially for the M5.
scoobymike
07-04-2002, 14:25
Tony
even being a conservative Swiss I know you like to wind me up a bit which is good. Have you noticed, the brake section is almost deserted when we both don't have our arguments!
Hope the GEMS works now as it is intended to
Roll on track days, if you drive AP or Movit, enjoy'em without brake problems!
Cheers
Mike
I am soon fitting the top spec AP group A 362 grooved disks and 6 pot calipers, ( for 18 wheels) but these are not availiable as an all inclusive fast road kit, and have to be matched out to a chosen set of rear bell/ disk/ callis/ mounting brackets and pads, anyone had problems removing the old disk/drums, fitting a fly off hydralic handbrake, and can suggest a good rear pad to match the fronts?
I would just fit Pagid RS42 all round, works well for me. I wouldn't get the 362mm discs - the extra cooling the discs give vs the extra unsprung weight isn't worth it IMHO. Just fit brake ducting instead.
Mike,
I agree that the movit's are good brakes. But the standard brakes with rs14 and ctf discs brakes really good too, so the only thing that everyone would like to know here, is how much the braking power is improved with the movit kit, and how does it compares with the ap 6 pots?
It would be cool if someone try to mesure the stopping distance of the movit kit, the ap and the standard all using the same pads and kind of tyres!
We all know that the movits, ap 6 pots or ctf discs does not warp and brake ok, but which one is better?
when are you and blade doing some measures? :)
And the 362mm brakes will not only give extra cooling but also better power as the caliper is more on the outside, and need less power to stop the wheel. Maybe you wont need that, but probably a 18 lighter wheel, with 362mm discs and 6 pots with good pads will be even better!
scoobymike
08-04-2002, 18:18
Maxi
if someone provides me with data-recording equipment I would happily do some test from high speeds. Problem is Tony's car will provide much more grip then mine and is lighter. But anyway the decceleration data could still be useful, especially when comparing the first stop with the tenth. Maybe I can get some data of the Ring EVO equipped with the Movits and Slicks as they have data recording in the car. It would be interesting to see what kind of max. decceleration they can achieve. As I'm on the Ring in two weeks maybe they provide me with some data.
Cheers
Mike
Yes right, that would be cool, that evo vii should be the right one to do that.
I agree that tony's evo is lighter and could have more grip, that's why I was saying to do that test with the same tyres. For example if you were on the same track with an ap evo you could use the same set off wheels for the test. Or maybe n.ring could ask movit to organize a test.
It would not be that easy to do and if movit brakes better it would be a good promotion for them, as everyone that want to change the brakes will buy movits!
Cheers
Well I'm still pressing on to having the 330mm kit fitted next Monday. I just hope I never have any more problems as the amount I've spent on the brake saga since I've had the car would have easily paid for these AP's long ago. Now today, I've been invited to a rematch at Bedford on the 29th which only gives me a couple of weeks to get them bedded in. But since Tiff Needell is going to be there I might just take up the challenge and see if I can get much better track times.
Well, had the AP 6 pots done but when I picked up the car, I saw they had fitted drilled discs and not the grooved ones (Don't all say Oh No all at once). Since I was away from home and wanted to get back, there seemed little point in trying to argue that they told me originally grooved would be fitted.
Anyway, did the HowFast trackday at Bedford yesterday on the GT circuit. On my last outing there, the best I managed was 2:57 (dry) but with the AP's, I did a 2:50 (also dry) so certainly a major improvement. Pads fitted are Pagid Blue (RS4-2 i think) which perform ok, but there just doesn't seem the bite that I was perhaps expecting from moving to the AP 6 pots. Reading this thread again, I now feel that this maybe is due solely to using drilled discs. Could I improve the bite by changing to a different pad ( and amp; if so which one) that would still be suitable for both trackday and amp; normal road use. The one thing I don't want to do ( and amp; cannot afford to) is change the discs again. I just couldn't stand the thought :(
But as far as overall performance goes, I was pretty pleased with my final timed result (2:55 in the wet and I lost a few seconds on one turn). There was some 100 entrants (including Tiff Needell in a Porsche GB loaned 911 Turbo) and I came 3rd behind Tiff which looks like I'll get fame in next weeks Autocar mag :D:D:D
Unbelieveably, a MK1 Golf took 1st place though it was highly modified and driven by a very experienced driver.
with pagid rs14 you can change youre discs after a few trackdays just like the ds3000
see if the pads are not 4-2-1 those are street pads they suck big time
go for ds2500 or pagid rs 4-4 or 4-2
anything above the friction (0.50) of these pads is eating youre discs
DS 3000 friction is 0.62
pagid rs 14 is is 0.60
these two pads have youre discs for breakfast:) but they stop you like a brick wall thats for sure:)
regards
andre
small person
04-05-2002, 18:40
Why don't you guys get with the times and look at the new range of calipers coming from here in the UK. KAD have developed a six pot caliper theat is aimed at the occasional track meet buy for those that mainly want top performance on the raod, it's much more than size involved in developing a top quality road brake. What may be good for the track may not be good for the road.
I know all this co's I have had them fitted to my Warrender 320 and I know that Warrender have them fitted to their new 400bhp Evo7.
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