Drummond / Proflex / Ohlins

[SuperL]

For the past few weeks I have been trying to narrow down my choices on Suspension. After reading all of the posts and communicating with Blade directly, Drummond look to be a good bet. My application would be fast road and the odd track day and I guess the absolute requirement would be to minimize roll and have high quality dampers that can actually keep the tyres in touch with the tarmac (and not just the edge of the tyre) all of the time. I also want to get rid of all understeer (which is probably a stretch).
After talking to several companies - all who have completely different opinions, I am completely confused.
I am being told that ALL high performance competition struts (including Drummond??) are not suitable for a road applicaiton due to the fact they are not fitted with seals which prevent dirt and gravel from entering the units. The lack of road quality seals also means high maintenance as the units would have to be cleaned and kept dirt free. I was also told of one Evo owner (black Evo 6 from the Greater Manchester area) who fitted Drummond struts and the units (bushes??) failed after 1500 miles - anyone on the forum??
I am being offered fast road kits from Proflex but just don't know if these units will be up to the hard job I have in store.
Constructive help and advice would be much appreciated.

[Michael K]

The Proflex fast road kit has the same technology as the standard shocks although more efficient. They have dust seals to my knowledge. I have the 3-way adjustable Gr.N Proflex shocks with single tube technology, very good and value for money (should be about 3k list price right now opposed to 5k for equivalent Öhlins). No dustseals, which means you have to take them apart every now and then (I've run them for about 6 months, about 3k miles, will clean them soon) ,depending on usage, and clean them. Öhlins is the same I believe, don't know about Drummond. If cleaning them is a problem for you, a professional kit is the wrong choice for you.

[T1000]

Have run 3 way Proflex on E5 rally car all this year .. very good but you do need to take the fronts off regulalry, strip clean and refill with lubricating oil. Seal are OK but water does get in especially when steam cleaning.

Drummond have no official support in UK so not may people use them.

Ohlins .. too expesnive !!!!!

We are just about to start building a E7 car for next year and have decided to go for Rieger 3 way.... a bit more expensive than Proflex but worth it.

[Maxi]

The proflex fast road kit is just a normal standard suspension as koni!

I have the proflex gr.n, they are very good for fast road use.
About dust seals, there are ones between the body and the tube of the shock, but not something that cover all the tube, so what do you mean by dust seals?
And do you mean to open them for cleaning?

If you go where Michael did, you can have them for 25k, and in france you can have ohlins for less than 40.

[blade]

The Drummonds I have are sealed and don't need regular rebuilding.

[StreetRocket]

Any one experienced Quantum? i cant find a single web page or people that have them. the only person i know have a set Quantum T6 on his GT-R. but i havent experience them yet (the car still in the shop).

[Claudiuslow]

Hi SuperL

Sounds like asking a question here just confused you even more. Let me tell you this:
the only type to go for is single tube
Good well-known brands include Öhlins, Proflex, Dynamic and appearently Drummond in Australia
Prices for 4 units are between 3k and 5k. (MAXI meant 2,5 and 4k, not 25 and 40)
Do not worry about the cleaning, have a garage do it yor you every 4 or 6 months or so. No big deal. Only people who do not know / supply them or think you are slow will tell you not to get them

Fitting this type of suspension for road use requires your supplier to know the right spring rate for non-slick application. They will need to set up the bump and rebound for you as well (in the beginning). You will get a much better feeling for the car and can concentrate on driving, not on adjusting body position because of roll.

However, it will not get rid of the understeer. To get rid of the understeer, fit a front LSD. What car have you got? What type of front diff? I have a TME, THERE IS NO FRONT DIFF IN THERE AT ALL. I know, I took the part (transfer case?) out yesterday. You could see the metal bar in there...

[SuperL]

Thanks everyone for your comments - Claudiuslow, you don't know the half of it!
I was even told on Friday that putting any competition suspension on a road car was crazy as the real stuff is meant to be worked hard through the full length of the strut. Using the real stuff in a fast road application would lead to ceasures as the the dampers are never worked hard enough to keep them right. Now, I must agree, some of this last comment makes some sense and the guy that told me this could have easily had 3 grand out of my back pocket - Instead he recommended the fast road kit at a grand.
Is there a grain of truth in this comment??
PS my money still remains in my back pocket!

[blade]

Sounds like utter crap to me SuperL!

Tarmac rally suspension is perfectly suited to fast road use and to the circuits. Perhaps the margins on the pro stuff aren't so good, and maybe they don't like selling people kits that need maintenance. The other thing to bear in mind is that there are no real kits as such for pro stuff. You choose the valving of the dampers, the spring rate, the spring type etc. It is a very personal thing, and sometimes means trial and error - maybe the guys you spoke to don't want to get into that. Hence why they offered the road kit.

There are too many people here who have proper suspension and have had no issues. I would still try and get a sealed kit if you do alot of road miles.

[Claudiuslow]

People want to sell you stuff they dont need to worry about setting it up etc. Plus they probably make better money on the road kits (which are crap, like Koni suspensions). Go to a serious motorsport company who know how to set up bump and rebound adjustable suspensions. And who know about spring rates.

[SuperL]

Claudius / Blade I am fast finding this out. I am totally amazed at the BS I have been told this last week on something as simple as suspension!! God help the Evo rookies out there trying to piece together reliable information on engine tuning, brakes, interior, tyres and everything else to improve their cars - You could easily make many costly mistakes.
So the favorite at the moment is....... Drummond 50mm rally tarmac spec suspension with very slighly softer springs.
Now I need to find the lowest cost route to getting a hold of a set - Any ideas?!!
Thanks to everyone who contributed.

[blade]

Ok - I have finally found out, it looks like 50mm rear 55mm front.

Here are the prices I paid (gulp!):

Suspension Kit - £2250
Additional Eibach Springs - £265

All plus VAT. The kit did come with double progressive springs, which would be good for the road, but still too soft for track :D

[SuperL]

Thanks Blade
Looks in line with what DMS are telling me. Do you know the spring rates/lenghts that were supplied with the standard kit and the rates /lengths you have from the Eibachs now??

[blade]

No, but PE will. Think it was 400lb front 450lb rear, and the originals were around 350. Something like that.

[Michael K]

Everyone, what SuperL got told about the shocks not being worked hard enough is actually very true, at least for single tube racing-dampers without dust seals like Proflex and Öhlins. The problem is that there is oil at the bottom of the shell (don't know what it's called) that holds the damper and it needs a lot of wheeltravel and hard hits to generate enough pressure to push that oil up the damper to lubricate it properly. You'll never get hard enough hits on the road for that, these dampers need rally type jumps and potholes. The story about them ceising I also think isn't very true, even if you don't lubricate them properly. I was told to spray some WD-40 on the damper every now and them to lubricate them and keep the seals working. Like that, no problems. SuperL have a look at the Proflex Gr.N and see what you think before you buy anything, as these are the best value for money in my opinion. Ok, they're a bit more expensive than the Drummond (not in my case [img]http://www.lancerregister.com/graphics/Wilk.gif border|EQU| 0 align|EQU| middle >), but they are 3-way adjustable (high speed and low speed bump and rebound) and have massive external reservoirs which come out the top of the damper, again something that the Drummonds don't have and these reservoirs make a world of difference when talking about efficiency of dampers. Also, they are being used in rallying around the world, which I think the Drummonds aren't. The downside is that they have to be cleaned every now and then.

[Claudiuslow]

Very true, but now blade is going to tell you that the Drummonds dont need the separate gas canisters as they are thicker and therefore do not heat up as much (which I think is theory). But as scoobydoobymikey says, each to his own...

[SuperL]

Hi MichaelK
Thanks for the response - I spoke to Proflex direct on Friday and they are HIGHLY reluctant to sell me thier Gr. N Kit. They told me that they had experienced a ceasure case because of the lack of movement in the Gr.N stuff in a road application which does not give me much confidence! The guy I spoke to was brilliant by the way - very knowledgeable, very open and very informative and could have easily talked me into 3 grands worth of stuff - in fact he didn't and offered me the stuff they sell at a grand which he said he sold in high numbers to race and rally schools and fast road customers - A refreshing change to the sharks out there waiting to rid you of your hard earned.
Remember, one of my criteria is - Low/no maintenance and I cannot take the risk of the dampers ceasing as of course there would be no warranty if the company in question has stated that they have not recommended their dampers for my application in the first place.
I do agree with you however, the Proflex Gr N stuff looks brilliant and I am sure if cared for correctly must be outstanding.

[Michael K]

If it was the Proflex reseller for the UK (can't remember his name), he's extremely knowledgeable and probably is just scared of possible liability issues. Could be that the guy who experienced the seizure is sueing the poor geezer. The system has to be looked after properly, which means lubricating it with WD40 about once a week and cleaning it when needed.

[SuperL]

Sounds too much like hard work for me Michael....

[Michael K]

SuperL, just checked your profile, I suppose something happens when you cross the 30 year threshold... [img]http://www.lancerregister.com/graphics/Wilk.gif border|EQU| 0 align|EQU| middle >

[SuperL]

Now THAT's funny!

[T1000]

SuperL
We have run proflex on our E5 rally car all this year and when correctly set up it is the dogs nuts.
Rears are a sealed unit and do not require stripping and cleaning it is just the fronts.
The fronts have a sliding bearing / bush and a small amount of oil (about 80cc) is needed to lubricate this bush.
You really do need to be pushing the dampers really hard, bumps and pot holes etc. to get the oil onto the bush.
The stripping and cleaning process takes about 3 hours but you would then need the front geometry reset once you put them back on again.
When we put them back together we put a small amount of grease around the bush... because we then go and road test car and worry that the oil will not lubricate the bush because we are just driving slowly on the road test.

I know guys who run Ohlins and Rieger and they have to do essentailly the same thing.

If you really, really want GPN Proflex they do a 45 mm version and a jumbo version which I think is 55mm.

[T1000]

Man to talk to about Proflex is Gordon on 01200 442345.... he knows it inside out !!!!!!

[Michael K]

T1000, you took the words right out of my mouth. Didn't have the technical lingo for dampers yet, but now I do. I thought the grease around the bush was a standard procedure, at least that's what the one sheet service manual said when we took them apart. How much dirt do your seals let through? When I took mine apart, there was some sand and other dirt in one of the struts, the other one was fully clean. Just wanted to compare road and rally use. In theory, the seals shouldn't let anything through under hard use until the oil's used up.

[T1000]

Michael K
Typical UK forest event is 45 - 65 miles of stages.
We strip and clean them after every event.
It is was a dry event the oil is usually OK
If it was a wet event then the oil is really mucky and full of bits of grit, dust and mud etc.

I recently tried a car with Reiger suspension and it felt much better than our E5 on gravel.
We are having a new E7 for next year and will be fitting Reiger instead of Proflex.(Reiger seals do look much better)

[blade]

SuperL,

Now you know what the Drummonds are like!

Where's your check book then??

[blade]

Of course I meant cheque book!!! :)

[SuperL]

Folks
Yesterday I had the pleasure to meet Blade, Steve from PE and Droid and be taken around Donnington Park Race Circuit by Ed Moore a highly experienced professional racing driver at the wheel of Blade's Monster. What an experience! Not only is Blade's car the most balanced, well sorted Evo 6 I have ever been in, (it is also one of the fastest) In the hands of Ed Moore this car performed amazingly - I just laughed my head off for 6 laps as Ed braked later, and later and later into corners and just distroyed all in his path. On the track there was the usual gaggle of Lotus Elise, Exige, TVRs etc (Don't forget the old CRX Blade!) along with a well sorted, well driven GT3 and an even better sorted, well driven RSR, and a 550BHP Escort Cossy. The Lancer performed extremely well (I bet those Porsche's were ********!!) - The engine is a peach, the brakes never once showed any issues (I am now convinced AP is THE way to go, with the PE Air Duct Kits) and the suspension (the main reason for my trip) was very impressive. It was compliant, allowed you to really ride the rumble strips without unbalancing the car and minimized roll. Understeer has been greatly reduced and unlike the standard Evo 6 could be driven around . I am now coming to the conclusion that mild understeer is probably the best an Evo owner can hope for and is a trait of the marque (but no big deal when you have 350|PLS| BHP Engine to help correct this too!). More suspension and geometry tweaks may well improve this.
The car could be driven on the throttle, brakes or in the old fasioned method and never once misbehaved. I saw a lot of similarities in the approach PE have taken to building this car for Blade as how Ralliart have approached the E7 eXtreme S and it was reassuring that both these tuning houses have agreed independantly and without prior knowledge on the products that work best in building RELIABLE Super Lancers . Blade's car felt like the eXtreme S too, but better set up - Something only replacing the suspension on the Extreme S would fix to improve it for this application, although I don't think you could ever get close to the 1200KGs Blade's car must weigh (and I believe it!) starting with an E7.
Let's be clear however Blade's car has been designed solely for the track and no compromises have been made to allow for long sustained road use - (He has his M5 for that don't you M8!), whereas the E7 eXtreme S still has to bridge that some Road/ mostly Track compromise in standard delivered form.
Steve from PE was extremely knowledgeable, helpfull and keen to steer you away from making expensive mistakes and if he is representaitve of PE, which I am sure he is, then I would have no issue in letting them loose on my car or asking him for advice - Unfortunately for them, I have already gone another route which exceeds the needs for my application and have long standing, strong relationships with Ralliart - Each to their own.
One hell of a car Blade and a credit to you, PE and your Bank Account - Thanks for the invite!!
This underlined to me the quality of the Drummond kit (the reason for my trip) - Something that will be making it's way onto my car in the future and the value of track driving tuition, which I will also be looking into (get ready Ed!)
Thanks also to Droid for taking me around in his M3 - The best M car BMW have made to date and thankfully shares none of the same DNA with the previous Hairdresser mobile. Impressive drive m8!
What a day!!

[blade]

Thanks for that - the Porsches were ####ed. They were total ####ers, and were really racing. I finally got ####ed off with it so ended up in a Porsche sandwich - RSR in front, GT3 behind. I left the GT3 easily on the long corners (Coppice) and the straights. The RSR was really quick, but I was gaining on him each lap. Didn't overtake him, as we had to come off for fuel!

As for the CRX - ####ER! He very nearly put me into the wall - he indicated to let me pass, and then when I was along side started to drift towards me. Lucky for me, Ed was in the car, saw it and corrected it!

The car is every bit as good as SuperL says, but if you do have a nasty moment in it - it will be a big one! I had one yesterday in Craner with Droid in the passenger seat. Kept it on the track, no big deal, but we were going very fast when it happened!

There was a red TME going round too - anyone here??

[silversix]

I know that Dave has DMS shocks on his car (Near Manchester). I'll see him on Wed, and see what his thoughts are.

Adrian

[blairevo3]

clauius how can your evo have no front diff? do you mean a open front diff? and the front diff is in the gearbox not the transfer box!

[Claudiuslow]

Yes, I mean the diff, like the part that looks like it was there, but it was empty. Do you call that open diff?

[oli goon]

Blair,

according to workshop manuals the centre diff is the one at the back of the gear box and the front diff is the one in the transfer box. This could be a translation **** up as I'm not sure how this would work.

I posted some time ago about LSD in the centre diff/front diff as opposed to open diffs. Basically the workshop manual only shows an open diff for the centre with LSD an option for the front. Other Mitsi glossies claim viscous centre diff. But i dunno.

Ideally what i like to be able to do is to take a gearbox/transfer box assembly apart and get my fingers good and oily until I understood the way the system works.